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	<title>Comments on: Ebenezer &#8212; The Dénouement</title>
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	<description>He has made everything beautiful in His time.</description>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-denouement/comment-page-1/#comment-75527</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 09:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I just finished reading this last entry. YOU NEEDED TO WRITE ALL THIS!  It gives voice and living testimony to so many hurting and damaged believers who have not found peace in a &quot;military&quot; Christianity.  I grew up in the Greenville/Fundamental system of works/rule-based grace, and at the age of 32 am seeing so much hurt and spiritual numbness all around me.  I have no doubt that everyone in Fundamental systems is hurting deeply whether they were to admit it or not.  Man&#039;s contrived &quot;grace&quot; just doesn&#039;t cut the mustard.  God&#039;s is so much better-and I don&#039;t mean to sound trite.  Your heart&#039;s Godly and sincere insights on much of Fundamentalism are like a big ol&#039; glass of water to the poor smuck who&#039;s been stuck in the desert with no way of getting out.  Water sure tastes good when you&#039;re thirsty.  Fundamentalism leaves it&#039;s footsoldiers SO THIRSTY. Living water extends living grace.  Grace that makes life worth living. Grace that is liveable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just finished reading this last entry. YOU NEEDED TO WRITE ALL THIS!  It gives voice and living testimony to so many hurting and damaged believers who have not found peace in a &#8220;military&#8221; Christianity.  I grew up in the Greenville/Fundamental system of works/rule-based grace, and at the age of 32 am seeing so much hurt and spiritual numbness all around me.  I have no doubt that everyone in Fundamental systems is hurting deeply whether they were to admit it or not.  Man&#8217;s contrived &#8220;grace&#8221; just doesn&#8217;t cut the mustard.  God&#8217;s is so much better-and I don&#8217;t mean to sound trite.  Your heart&#8217;s Godly and sincere insights on much of Fundamentalism are like a big ol&#8217; glass of water to the poor smuck who&#8217;s been stuck in the desert with no way of getting out.  Water sure tastes good when you&#8217;re thirsty.  Fundamentalism leaves it&#8217;s footsoldiers SO THIRSTY. Living water extends living grace.  Grace that makes life worth living. Grace that is liveable.</p>
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		<title>By: A Time to Laugh &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Why I&#8217;m Voting for Obama: My Politics Oral Defense</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-denouement/comment-page-1/#comment-70867</link>
		<dc:creator>A Time to Laugh &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Why I&#8217;m Voting for Obama: My Politics Oral Defense</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 19:01:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/20/ebenezer-the-denouement/#comment-70867</guid>
		<description>[...] my newest hero. And her analysis of the Right stunned me this week because it&#8217;s so . . . familiar: The truth few wish to utter is that the GOP has abandoned many conservatives, who mostly nurse [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] my newest hero. And her analysis of the Right stunned me this week because it&#8217;s so . . . familiar: The truth few wish to utter is that the GOP has abandoned many conservatives, who mostly nurse [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Fitzhenry</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-denouement/comment-page-1/#comment-65569</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Fitzhenry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 07:12:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/20/ebenezer-the-denouement/#comment-65569</guid>
		<description>Camille, thanks for writing this.  “[K]eep your mouth shut about it” and “shut up”?  That’s ironic.  Bob Jones, Sr. said, &quot;Some say, &#039;Don&#039;t say anything. You can&#039;t wash dirty linen in public!&#039; But I say it&#039;s better to wash dirty linen in public than not at all!&quot;  

Your readers’ experiences, observations, and conclusions paralleled my own.  Different people, different times, different issues, different circumstances, different perspectives, yet, through it all, an undeniable sameness.  

Thatmom, regarding spiritual abuse, Daniel Dafoe said it thus, &quot;Of all the things with which mankind is cursed, religious tyranny is the worst.&quot;  

Christ vigorously rebuked the Pharisees in Matthew 15 and 23 for self-righteousness, hypocrisy, and spiritual abuse.  To ignore His example and to create a class of people whose beliefs and practices are immune from earthly correction or rebuke is to take the path to cultism. 

Thatmom also wrote about, “being accused of slander, libel, and gossip repeatedly for holding certain people and their teachings up to the light of Scripture…”  

In the past 80 years, no one has ever been deemed high enough in standing with God, competent enough in theology, sound enough in mind, pure enough in motive, or honest enough in speech to reprove the doings of BJU.  Bob Jones Sr. said, &quot;So you want to know where a man stands with God? You have only to ask him one question: ‘what do you think of this university?’&quot;  One would have to hail back to the boasts of the builder of the Titanic (&#039;God Himself couldn’t sink this ship!&#039;) to find an equally arrogant statement, a like betrayal of trust, and a greater tragedy.

Gordo said, “This abuse is now in the 4th generation. Thank you and Jeri for calling it what it is - evil. The question I’ve never been able to answer is, why? What is the fatal flaw at the heart of that institution?”

Stephanie answered Gordo’s question with “self-righteousness”.  I agree.  However, in my own efforts to identify “the fatal flaw at the heart of that institution,” I concluded that it is rarely one flaw that proves fatal.  The institution - and its adherents - display a Pharisaical hypocrisy driven by an intense personal loyalty to the Joneses and a fierce institutional idolatry for BJU.  

The following quotes seem to lend support to such a conclusion:

&quot;This trio [the Bob’s] of remarkable, paradoxical, and charismatic men have built an institution where fundamentalist theology and personal loyalty to them were and are the prerequisites to success for all who work and study there.&quot; Mark Dalhouse, An Island in the Lake of Fire

&quot;Disloyalty is a characer fault that I do not believe is ever cured. I will forgive a disloyal person if he asks me to, but I will never trust him again...[W]hen [BJU] has had to draw battle lines and take a position, those who are students and faculty and do not stand with us are traitors to the cause this institution represents; and there is no reason why we should ever let them return. We will forgive them if they ask us, but we could not trust them not to betray us again if the occassion arose.&quot; Bob Jones III

“I would never break with Bob Jones.  When you break with him, you break with Bob Jones University.”  Phil Shuler

Gordo’s experiences again mirror my own: “…the fruits are very clear - of the dozen or so friends I’m still in contact with from BJU, not one of us will be in church this coming Easter Sunday morning. Half of us drifted away and the other half are hard-core infidels. All of us are embarrassed to say we attended the University. None of use have sent children there. This is the fruit of Bob Jones University.” 

Disillusionment is one of the dangers of the “leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy”.  I sometimes wonder: How many people have been driven away from Christianity by BJU?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Camille, thanks for writing this.  “[K]eep your mouth shut about it” and “shut up”?  That’s ironic.  Bob Jones, Sr. said, &#8220;Some say, &#8216;Don&#8217;t say anything. You can&#8217;t wash dirty linen in public!&#8217; But I say it&#8217;s better to wash dirty linen in public than not at all!&#8221;  </p>
<p>Your readers’ experiences, observations, and conclusions paralleled my own.  Different people, different times, different issues, different circumstances, different perspectives, yet, through it all, an undeniable sameness.  </p>
<p>Thatmom, regarding spiritual abuse, Daniel Dafoe said it thus, &#8220;Of all the things with which mankind is cursed, religious tyranny is the worst.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Christ vigorously rebuked the Pharisees in <a href="http://biblegateway.com/bible?version=65&amp;passage=Matthew+15" class="bibleref" title="MSG Matthew 15">Matthew 15</a> and 23 for self-righteousness, hypocrisy, and spiritual abuse.  To ignore His example and to create a class of people whose beliefs and practices are immune from earthly correction or rebuke is to take the path to cultism. </p>
<p>Thatmom also wrote about, “being accused of slander, libel, and gossip repeatedly for holding certain people and their teachings up to the light of Scripture…”  </p>
<p>In the past 80 years, no one has ever been deemed high enough in standing with God, competent enough in theology, sound enough in mind, pure enough in motive, or honest enough in speech to reprove the doings of BJU.  Bob Jones Sr. said, &#8220;So you want to know where a man stands with God? You have only to ask him one question: ‘what do you think of this university?’&#8221;  One would have to hail back to the boasts of the builder of the Titanic (&#8216;God Himself couldn’t sink this ship!&#8217;) to find an equally arrogant statement, a like betrayal of trust, and a greater tragedy.</p>
<p>Gordo said, “This abuse is now in the 4th generation. Thank you and Jeri for calling it what it is &#8211; evil. The question I’ve never been able to answer is, why? What is the fatal flaw at the heart of that institution?”</p>
<p>Stephanie answered Gordo’s question with “self-righteousness”.  I agree.  However, in my own efforts to identify “the fatal flaw at the heart of that institution,” I concluded that it is rarely one flaw that proves fatal.  The institution &#8211; and its adherents &#8211; display a Pharisaical hypocrisy driven by an intense personal loyalty to the Joneses and a fierce institutional idolatry for BJU.  </p>
<p>The following quotes seem to lend support to such a conclusion:</p>
<p>&#8220;This trio [the Bob’s] of remarkable, paradoxical, and charismatic men have built an institution where fundamentalist theology and personal loyalty to them were and are the prerequisites to success for all who work and study there.&#8221; Mark Dalhouse, An Island in the Lake of Fire</p>
<p>&#8220;Disloyalty is a characer fault that I do not believe is ever cured. I will forgive a disloyal person if he asks me to, but I will never trust him again&#8230;[W]hen [BJU] has had to draw battle lines and take a position, those who are students and faculty and do not stand with us are traitors to the cause this institution represents; and there is no reason why we should ever let them return. We will forgive them if they ask us, but we could not trust them not to betray us again if the occassion arose.&#8221; Bob Jones III</p>
<p>“I would never break with Bob Jones.  When you break with him, you break with Bob Jones University.”  Phil Shuler</p>
<p>Gordo’s experiences again mirror my own: “…the fruits are very clear &#8211; of the dozen or so friends I’m still in contact with from BJU, not one of us will be in church this coming Easter Sunday morning. Half of us drifted away and the other half are hard-core infidels. All of us are embarrassed to say we attended the University. None of use have sent children there. This is the fruit of Bob Jones University.” </p>
<p>Disillusionment is one of the dangers of the “leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy”.  I sometimes wonder: How many people have been driven away from Christianity by BJU?</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Holmes</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-denouement/comment-page-1/#comment-65505</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Holmes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Mar 2008 02:44:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/20/ebenezer-the-denouement/#comment-65505</guid>
		<description>Camille,

It&#039;s been a few years since we&#039;ve had contact.  I read some of your writings. I am sorry to hear of your pain but I am glad to see you and Grant are free from the spiritual bondage at BJU.  Melody and I left that mindset several years ago only to receive the same shameful treatment and conditional love.  It hurts a lot.  Keep following Jesus. There&#039;s a fountain of endless grace in Him.  If you guys ever need true friends feel free to call on us.

Your Partners in Recovery,

Phil and Melody Holmes</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Camille,</p>
<p>It&#8217;s been a few years since we&#8217;ve had contact.  I read some of your writings. I am sorry to hear of your pain but I am glad to see you and Grant are free from the spiritual bondage at BJU.  Melody and I left that mindset several years ago only to receive the same shameful treatment and conditional love.  It hurts a lot.  Keep following Jesus. There&#8217;s a fountain of endless grace in Him.  If you guys ever need true friends feel free to call on us.</p>
<p>Your Partners in Recovery,</p>
<p>Phil and Melody Holmes</p>
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		<title>By: Christy</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-denouement/comment-page-1/#comment-65486</link>
		<dc:creator>Christy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:08:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/20/ebenezer-the-denouement/#comment-65486</guid>
		<description>These have been great to read.

Something I have seen in Fundamentalism--at BJ, church, in &quot;friends&quot;--is that people do not trust that God is working in believers and that they are walking in His Spirit, etc. Many fundies try to do the work on others themselves by imposing legalistic standards and rules, and then judging them if the standards aren&#039;t met. If they see a brother listening to music they don&#039;t agree with or attending a school that is not fundamentalist...they sadly think that brother has fallen away from grace and is not right with God. (When in reality that brother is probably enjoying a happier relationship with God than they ever could!)

I hear so many fundamentalists talking about fighting for fundamentalism, about how wonderful it is to be a fundamentalist, how fundamentalism is getting attacked, etc. WHO CARES?! What about talking about standing up for Christ, enjoying being a CHRISTIAN? Who cares if fundamentalism is getting attacked? Shouldn&#039;t we care more about the name of Jesus being attacked?
Fundamentalists are so busy fighting for their movement against fellow Christians who are not fundies, that they are missing the whole big picture. What would Paul say? Hmmmmm....

Anyways, so great to hear of God&#039;s grace in your lives!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These have been great to read.</p>
<p>Something I have seen in Fundamentalism&#8211;at BJ, church, in &#8220;friends&#8221;&#8211;is that people do not trust that God is working in believers and that they are walking in His Spirit, etc. Many fundies try to do the work on others themselves by imposing legalistic standards and rules, and then judging them if the standards aren&#8217;t met. If they see a brother listening to music they don&#8217;t agree with or attending a school that is not fundamentalist&#8230;they sadly think that brother has fallen away from grace and is not right with God. (When in reality that brother is probably enjoying a happier relationship with God than they ever could!)</p>
<p>I hear so many fundamentalists talking about fighting for fundamentalism, about how wonderful it is to be a fundamentalist, how fundamentalism is getting attacked, etc. WHO CARES?! What about talking about standing up for Christ, enjoying being a CHRISTIAN? Who cares if fundamentalism is getting attacked? Shouldn&#8217;t we care more about the name of Jesus being attacked?<br />
Fundamentalists are so busy fighting for their movement against fellow Christians who are not fundies, that they are missing the whole big picture. What would Paul say? Hmmmmm&#8230;.</p>
<p>Anyways, so great to hear of God&#8217;s grace in your lives!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Laurie M</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-denouement/comment-page-1/#comment-65465</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurie M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 00:58:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/20/ebenezer-the-denouement/#comment-65465</guid>
		<description>Camille,
As I visited the IFB church in which I was raised (yeah--the one that endorsed child abuse in the name of Jesus Christ) just recently (yes--I do this to let the grandpa show off the grandsons) I was stunned to hear this in the adult Sunday School lesson. 

[studying the names of God] &quot;The Lord is our Sanctification, and this is how we change ourselves, by doing what is in His Word.&quot; 

HOW WE CHANGE OURSELVES. No, the work of sanctification is not of God, nor about His Grace, or even the working of the Holy Spirit in us or the completed work of His Son. It is about what. we. DO. Sanctification is a system of works. It&#039;s only the instant of being &quot;saved&quot; that is about grace.

For so many years I couldn&#039;t verbalize what didn&#039;t &quot;feel&quot; right about fundyism. And once I &quot;got&quot; it--really understood grace--it transformed everything--especially my parenting.

How sad, that there are still so many that will not experience the fullness of the Gospel because of the continued grasping for control at BJU. I can&#039;t help but to express it. It is just a sad, pathetic situation. 

At least we are stopping the cycle with our family.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Camille,<br />
As I visited the IFB church in which I was raised (yeah&#8211;the one that endorsed child abuse in the name of Jesus Christ) just recently (yes&#8211;I do this to let the grandpa show off the grandsons) I was stunned to hear this in the adult Sunday School lesson. </p>
<p>[studying the names of God] &#8220;The Lord is our Sanctification, and this is how we change ourselves, by doing what is in His Word.&#8221; </p>
<p>HOW WE CHANGE OURSELVES. No, the work of sanctification is not of God, nor about His Grace, or even the working of the Holy Spirit in us or the completed work of His Son. It is about what. we. DO. Sanctification is a system of works. It&#8217;s only the instant of being &#8220;saved&#8221; that is about grace.</p>
<p>For so many years I couldn&#8217;t verbalize what didn&#8217;t &#8220;feel&#8221; right about fundyism. And once I &#8220;got&#8221; it&#8211;really understood grace&#8211;it transformed everything&#8211;especially my parenting.</p>
<p>How sad, that there are still so many that will not experience the fullness of the Gospel because of the continued grasping for control at BJU. I can&#8217;t help but to express it. It is just a sad, pathetic situation. </p>
<p>At least we are stopping the cycle with our family.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Keller</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-denouement/comment-page-1/#comment-65424</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Keller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 11:32:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/20/ebenezer-the-denouement/#comment-65424</guid>
		<description>Thanks, once again, for sharing your story. I think many of us have found common threads with our own stories.

I think the one big thing missing from BJU-style fundamentalism is Jesus - The Word Incarnate. As I get ready for 2 different Easter services tomorrow, I stand in awe of what happened 2 thousand or so years ago. Last night we had a fantastic worship experience - just the story from John and music. There&#039;s nothing better than that: Scripture and poetry.

The last line of &quot;O Sacred Head,&quot; ends like this: &quot;I hope I never outlive my love for Thee.&quot; What I want to share with all of us who are in some process of recovery is remember your initial conversion experience. The amazing love we felt at that time is still there and ready for us to reclaim. It&#039;s not found in institutions or rules or dress codes. It&#039;s found in Christ alone, who uses grace to capture us and hold us in love forever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, once again, for sharing your story. I think many of us have found common threads with our own stories.</p>
<p>I think the one big thing missing from BJU-style fundamentalism is Jesus &#8211; The Word Incarnate. As I get ready for 2 different Easter services tomorrow, I stand in awe of what happened 2 thousand or so years ago. Last night we had a fantastic worship experience &#8211; just the story from John and music. There&#8217;s nothing better than that: Scripture and poetry.</p>
<p>The last line of &#8220;O Sacred Head,&#8221; ends like this: &#8220;I hope I never outlive my love for Thee.&#8221; What I want to share with all of us who are in some process of recovery is remember your initial conversion experience. The amazing love we felt at that time is still there and ready for us to reclaim. It&#8217;s not found in institutions or rules or dress codes. It&#8217;s found in Christ alone, who uses grace to capture us and hold us in love forever.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-denouement/comment-page-1/#comment-65419</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 02:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/20/ebenezer-the-denouement/#comment-65419</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve appreciated your story. I have seen much abuse in fundamentalist circles as I grew up. I&#039;m looking forward to following your accounts of how the Father is teaching you and how you are growing in His grace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve appreciated your story. I have seen much abuse in fundamentalist circles as I grew up. I&#8217;m looking forward to following your accounts of how the Father is teaching you and how you are growing in His grace.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephanie Barrett</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-denouement/comment-page-1/#comment-65417</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephanie Barrett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:46:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/20/ebenezer-the-denouement/#comment-65417</guid>
		<description>As for Gordo&#039;s questions, &quot;The question I’ve never been able to answer is, why? What is the fatal flaw at the heart of that institution?&quot; I believe the answer is ultimately self righteousness. In the last few years, I have recognized this sin (yes, that&#039;s what it is) in every segment of society. As long as we feel we are better than others, we don&#039;t have to face the fact that in God&#039;s eyes, we are on a level playing field with all people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for Gordo&#8217;s questions, &#8220;The question I’ve never been able to answer is, why? What is the fatal flaw at the heart of that institution?&#8221; I believe the answer is ultimately self righteousness. In the last few years, I have recognized this sin (yes, that&#8217;s what it is) in every segment of society. As long as we feel we are better than others, we don&#8217;t have to face the fact that in God&#8217;s eyes, we are on a level playing field with all people.</p>
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		<title>By: carey</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-denouement/comment-page-1/#comment-65414</link>
		<dc:creator>carey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 19:04:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/20/ebenezer-the-denouement/#comment-65414</guid>
		<description>&quot;No examples exist in Scripture of speaking out against injustice, you’re told. . . . what Bible are they reading?&quot;

Clearly they are not reading a Bible that contains the prophet Isaiah. &quot;Isaiah 58:6 Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke?  8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn...&quot; 

If they are serious about being a light to the lost, they need to work hard against injustice,  not perpetuate it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;No examples exist in Scripture of speaking out against injustice, you’re told. . . . what Bible are they reading?&#8221;</p>
<p>Clearly they are not reading a Bible that contains the prophet Isaiah. &#8220;<a href="http://biblegateway.com/bible?version=65&amp;passage=Isaiah+58%3A6" class="bibleref" title="MSG Isaiah 58:6">Isaiah 58:6</a> Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke?  8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn&#8230;&#8221; </p>
<p>If they are serious about being a light to the lost, they need to work hard against injustice,  not perpetuate it!</p>
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