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	<title>Comments on: Ebenezer &#8212; The Ultimatum</title>
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	<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/</link>
	<description>He has made everything beautiful in His time.</description>
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		<title>By: A Singer, A Song &#187; Beware the Judaizers</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/comment-page-1/#comment-68441</link>
		<dc:creator>A Singer, A Song &#187; Beware the Judaizers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:38:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/13/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/#comment-68441</guid>
		<description>[...] a reminder of my wife&#8217;s post about the meeting went down with Stephen Jones and Gary Weier just over one year ago today: I do [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a reminder of my wife&#8217;s post about the meeting went down with Stephen Jones and Gary Weier just over one year ago today: I do [...]</p>
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		<title>By: A Time to Laugh &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Trust God and get going!</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/comment-page-1/#comment-68047</link>
		<dc:creator>A Time to Laugh &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Trust God and get going!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 04:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/13/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/#comment-68047</guid>
		<description>[...] been a good year since the ultimatum exactly a year ago today. A very, very good [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] been a good year since the ultimatum exactly a year ago today. A very, very good [...]</p>
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		<title>By: cklewis</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/comment-page-1/#comment-66577</link>
		<dc:creator>cklewis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 12:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/13/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/#comment-66577</guid>
		<description>Oooo -- Paul! Thanks for pointing that out. I fixed the link. Here it is fully listed:

http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/09/ebenezer-the-document/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oooo &#8212; Paul! Thanks for pointing that out. I fixed the link. Here it is fully listed:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/09/ebenezer-the-document/" rel="nofollow">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/09/ebenezer-the-document/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/comment-page-1/#comment-66565</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:25:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/13/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/#comment-66565</guid>
		<description>is the link to &quot;our statement&quot; broken or been moved, or the statement deleted?  I&#039;m getting a page not found, error 404, when I try to follow that link.  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>is the link to &#8220;our statement&#8221; broken or been moved, or the statement deleted?  I&#8217;m getting a page not found, error 404, when I try to follow that link.  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Fitzhenry</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/comment-page-1/#comment-65442</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Fitzhenry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 10:46:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/13/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/#comment-65442</guid>
		<description>I graduated from BJU in 1980 and remained unreservedly &quot;loyal&quot; until 1991.  I have heard that &#039;things have changed at BJU&#039;.  Yet, I see from your following comment that little has changed at our alma mater:  

&quot;Like many, I was hopefully optimistic that a change for the better was taking place under BJU’s new administration. And as reluctant as I was to admit it before, during, and immediately after the meeting, I now see that really very little has changed in the last 81 years in the way that organization handles intellectual differences, faculty development, interpersonal disagreement, and administrative egos. Stories from the disenfranchised are legion, and if you compare our story to ones from 30 years ago, it’s plain to see that nothing’s changed.&quot;

When I was forced to take a hard look at my alma mater, I came across an open letter to BJU&#039;s president from Charles Underwood, BJU&#039;s first Director of Church Planting written in 1983.  Here is an excerpt:  

&quot;...I cannot help wondering if you and your father ever consider that the two of you are not Bob Jones University. There are six thousand supporting alumni, thousands of former students, and friends, multitudes who, if ever asked, to tell you to clean up your act!

We have attempted to explain to offended friends why you tolerate men on your board who are unequally yoked with Masonry; why you speak out against authorities with inordinate language such as only the ungodly employ; why you have no respect for graduates who practice what they have been taught at the university; and why you advocate building independent fundamental churches and yet excoriate those that exercise independence.

I fully believe that most of the graduates, former students, and supporters would be deeply relieved ft BJU—in the persons of you and your father—would really stand for the scriptural separation you so loudly proclaim by openly denouncing Freemasonry for what you, in private correspondence, have written that it is.

For over a year, beginning in 1970, I contacted men and women in California on behalf of BJU. I made approximately three thousand contacts by telephone and about a thousand face-to-face. When people faced me with the duplicity of the leadership of the university, I simply disbelieved it, and I went on trying to help build a school that I felt would stand for the truth of God until Jesus comes.&quot;

&quot;...As I write in this vein about my alma mater, and let it be clearly understood that I am not talking about the university as an institution, nor am I talking about the thousand or more faculty and staff members who, out of love and loyalty for Christ, have given their lives, as I have, to what they thought was service for Christ. I am speaking about the chancellor, and the president who have betrayed so many alumni, former students, and supporters, that it makes me heartsick...&quot;

Every field of endeavor, whether in business, government, religion, education, sport, etc., rises and falls on leadership.   The issues and the controversies involving my alma mater have changed many times during the 26 years since I left.  But, one thing is clear, &quot;...if you compare [y]our story to ones from 30 years ago, it’s plain to see that nothing’s changed.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I graduated from BJU in 1980 and remained unreservedly &#8220;loyal&#8221; until 1991.  I have heard that &#8216;things have changed at BJU&#8217;.  Yet, I see from your following comment that little has changed at our alma mater:  </p>
<p>&#8220;Like many, I was hopefully optimistic that a change for the better was taking place under BJU’s new administration. And as reluctant as I was to admit it before, during, and immediately after the meeting, I now see that really very little has changed in the last 81 years in the way that organization handles intellectual differences, faculty development, interpersonal disagreement, and administrative egos. Stories from the disenfranchised are legion, and if you compare our story to ones from 30 years ago, it’s plain to see that nothing’s changed.&#8221;</p>
<p>When I was forced to take a hard look at my alma mater, I came across an open letter to BJU&#8217;s president from Charles Underwood, BJU&#8217;s first Director of Church Planting written in 1983.  Here is an excerpt:  </p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;I cannot help wondering if you and your father ever consider that the two of you are not Bob Jones University. There are six thousand supporting alumni, thousands of former students, and friends, multitudes who, if ever asked, to tell you to clean up your act!</p>
<p>We have attempted to explain to offended friends why you tolerate men on your board who are unequally yoked with Masonry; why you speak out against authorities with inordinate language such as only the ungodly employ; why you have no respect for graduates who practice what they have been taught at the university; and why you advocate building independent fundamental churches and yet excoriate those that exercise independence.</p>
<p>I fully believe that most of the graduates, former students, and supporters would be deeply relieved ft BJU—in the persons of you and your father—would really stand for the scriptural separation you so loudly proclaim by openly denouncing Freemasonry for what you, in private correspondence, have written that it is.</p>
<p>For over a year, beginning in 1970, I contacted men and women in California on behalf of BJU. I made approximately three thousand contacts by telephone and about a thousand face-to-face. When people faced me with the duplicity of the leadership of the university, I simply disbelieved it, and I went on trying to help build a school that I felt would stand for the truth of God until Jesus comes.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;As I write in this vein about my alma mater, and let it be clearly understood that I am not talking about the university as an institution, nor am I talking about the thousand or more faculty and staff members who, out of love and loyalty for Christ, have given their lives, as I have, to what they thought was service for Christ. I am speaking about the chancellor, and the president who have betrayed so many alumni, former students, and supporters, that it makes me heartsick&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Every field of endeavor, whether in business, government, religion, education, sport, etc., rises and falls on leadership.   The issues and the controversies involving my alma mater have changed many times during the 26 years since I left.  But, one thing is clear, &#8220;&#8230;if you compare [y]our story to ones from 30 years ago, it’s plain to see that nothing’s changed.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Sara</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/comment-page-1/#comment-65342</link>
		<dc:creator>Sara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:22:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/13/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/#comment-65342</guid>
		<description>&quot;Why didn’t you send that staff woman to me? Why are we talking about this here at all? This is exactly the kind of gossip that I’ve been subjected to all year. This is the same-old, same-old. YOU should have sent her right to me instead of encouraging gossip and tattling by bringing it up here. I’ll tell you, I know exactly how the students feel.”

This is exactly what I have wanted to say to them for sooo long.  I am glad you had the courage to say it!  

Your blog is a blessing and encouragement to me.  I hope you and your family are doing well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Why didn’t you send that staff woman to me? Why are we talking about this here at all? This is exactly the kind of gossip that I’ve been subjected to all year. This is the same-old, same-old. YOU should have sent her right to me instead of encouraging gossip and tattling by bringing it up here. I’ll tell you, I know exactly how the students feel.”</p>
<p>This is exactly what I have wanted to say to them for sooo long.  I am glad you had the courage to say it!  </p>
<p>Your blog is a blessing and encouragement to me.  I hope you and your family are doing well.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeri Massi</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/comment-page-1/#comment-65332</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeri Massi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2008 17:48:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/13/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/#comment-65332</guid>
		<description>Yes, there is life after BJU.  Reading rapidly through the Ebenezer posts, I&#039;m coming away with a pretty strong sense that you outgrew BJU, and they actually did you a favor (although they probably could have done it in a better way) of getting you out the door.  Clearly, it was time for you to go.

BJU did me an awful lot of good---when I was coming out of an abusive, violent, highly dysfunctional family. Two of my siblings &quot;got saved&quot; and decided Jack Hyles was God&#039;s number one preacher, and another sister went kooky Pentecostal.  And I went to BJU, for which I thank God. And when the time was right, I left BJU, and I thank God for that, too.

For me, BJU was like a hospital, a place where I recovered.  And I did have a great time and loved it and did very well spiritually---up to a point. I became a grad assistant and then worked at the Press. But when I thought I was reaching that point of no longer agreeing with a lot of the theology and practice of BJU, I changed my status to Day Employee. And when I knew I was at that point, I gave two weeks notice and left. 

Within a year or two, all the hubub over your exit will die down, and some friendships you may think that you have lost might just come back to you.  These days I document cases of church abuse, and I rake Fundamentalism over the coals plenty of times for its moral and ethical failings.  I have lost most of my friendships from BJU, but I have kept a few. I think the same will happen with you and your husband. I certainly hope so.

But really, though I think you have suffered a lot of stress in these matters, it is clear that it really was time for you and your husband to leave BJU.  In fact, my guess is that your exodus from a certain stratum of Christianity is just beginning.

Christ is your righteousness, and Christ is really your only vindication. He won&#039;t disappoint you. And there will be many an exodus from BJU as the Doctrines of Grace continue to be taught, and as these sad cases of abuse and gross depravity in Fundamentalist churches continue to increase in number.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, there is life after BJU.  Reading rapidly through the Ebenezer posts, I&#8217;m coming away with a pretty strong sense that you outgrew BJU, and they actually did you a favor (although they probably could have done it in a better way) of getting you out the door.  Clearly, it was time for you to go.</p>
<p>BJU did me an awful lot of good&#8212;when I was coming out of an abusive, violent, highly dysfunctional family. Two of my siblings &#8220;got saved&#8221; and decided Jack Hyles was God&#8217;s number one preacher, and another sister went kooky Pentecostal.  And I went to BJU, for which I thank God. And when the time was right, I left BJU, and I thank God for that, too.</p>
<p>For me, BJU was like a hospital, a place where I recovered.  And I did have a great time and loved it and did very well spiritually&#8212;up to a point. I became a grad assistant and then worked at the Press. But when I thought I was reaching that point of no longer agreeing with a lot of the theology and practice of BJU, I changed my status to Day Employee. And when I knew I was at that point, I gave two weeks notice and left. </p>
<p>Within a year or two, all the hubub over your exit will die down, and some friendships you may think that you have lost might just come back to you.  These days I document cases of church abuse, and I rake Fundamentalism over the coals plenty of times for its moral and ethical failings.  I have lost most of my friendships from BJU, but I have kept a few. I think the same will happen with you and your husband. I certainly hope so.</p>
<p>But really, though I think you have suffered a lot of stress in these matters, it is clear that it really was time for you and your husband to leave BJU.  In fact, my guess is that your exodus from a certain stratum of Christianity is just beginning.</p>
<p>Christ is your righteousness, and Christ is really your only vindication. He won&#8217;t disappoint you. And there will be many an exodus from BJU as the Doctrines of Grace continue to be taught, and as these sad cases of abuse and gross depravity in Fundamentalist churches continue to increase in number.</p>
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		<title>By: Shanna</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/comment-page-1/#comment-65325</link>
		<dc:creator>Shanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2008 02:53:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/13/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/#comment-65325</guid>
		<description>I find it amazing the journey God has guided you through. I remember the whole process as it unfolded when we were at GCM....the ups and downs....points where you had hope and points where that hope was broken to pieces. 

I am so proud of you! I am also thrilled to have you as a fellow sister in Christ.

Keep writing...keep spreading Christian Liberty and Grace...keep it up, God still has a lot He wants you to do, of that I&#039;ve no doubt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it amazing the journey God has guided you through. I remember the whole process as it unfolded when we were at GCM&#8230;.the ups and downs&#8230;.points where you had hope and points where that hope was broken to pieces. </p>
<p>I am so proud of you! I am also thrilled to have you as a fellow sister in Christ.</p>
<p>Keep writing&#8230;keep spreading Christian Liberty and Grace&#8230;keep it up, God still has a lot He wants you to do, of that I&#8217;ve no doubt.</p>
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		<title>By: The Bard</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/comment-page-1/#comment-65320</link>
		<dc:creator>The Bard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 20:06:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/13/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/#comment-65320</guid>
		<description>“But Grant, you don’t understand. Paul is talking about a specific problem with the Judaizers. You can’t apply that to today.”

That&#039;s just sad. I know for a fact that the man who spoke those words sat under at least one teacher who drilled into the class the question &quot;if what you just said is true, what else must be true?&quot;  I am almost certain that the speaker sat under two other teachers who made the same point. 

Always listening, but never perceiving, anyone?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“But Grant, you don’t understand. Paul is talking about a specific problem with the Judaizers. You can’t apply that to today.”</p>
<p>That&#8217;s just sad. I know for a fact that the man who spoke those words sat under at least one teacher who drilled into the class the question &#8220;if what you just said is true, what else must be true?&#8221;  I am almost certain that the speaker sat under two other teachers who made the same point. </p>
<p>Always listening, but never perceiving, anyone?</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Keller</title>
		<link>http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/comment-page-1/#comment-65314</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Keller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 06:33:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2008/03/13/ebenezer-the-ultimatum/#comment-65314</guid>
		<description>&quot;The leader responded: “But Grant, you don’t understand. Paul is talking about a specific problem with the Judaizers. You can’t apply that to today.”

What?!! ::checking ears for ‘taters:: What did you say? Are we all fundamentalists in this room or mainline liberal Protestants? We were so stunned by the comment that we asked for clarification in several follow-up email messages. Despite those repeated attempts, it seemed we could not pin him down on the issue.&quot;

Someone once referred to fundamentalism as a house built on sand. When one takes verses of Scripture out of context and changes their meaning, it&#039;s not a far stretch to start applying &quot;liberal&quot; techniques. (I have no real problems with applying an understanding of culture when interpreting Scripture. But, that is a hallmark of liberal Christianity.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The leader responded: “But Grant, you don’t understand. Paul is talking about a specific problem with the Judaizers. You can’t apply that to today.”</p>
<p>What?!! ::checking ears for ‘taters:: What did you say? Are we all fundamentalists in this room or mainline liberal Protestants? We were so stunned by the comment that we asked for clarification in several follow-up email messages. Despite those repeated attempts, it seemed we could not pin him down on the issue.&#8221;</p>
<p>Someone once referred to fundamentalism as a house built on sand. When one takes verses of Scripture out of context and changes their meaning, it&#8217;s not a far stretch to start applying &#8220;liberal&#8221; techniques. (I have no real problems with applying an understanding of culture when interpreting Scripture. But, that is a hallmark of liberal Christianity.)</p>
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