Person of the Year vs. “Miserable” “Wackos”

62 thoughts on “Person of the Year vs. “Miserable” “Wackos””

1. I talked to Fox Carolina about Ms. Clemens and her big mouth. Will be blogging further. I also told the news director that plenty more IFB stuff will be coming out in the near future since there is safety in numbers, so stay tuned.

   🙂

2. Wow. I didn’t think about it like that, but in some very small way, that makes me one of Time’s protesters. Cool!

   A kid popped one of the balloons? Really? And they called you guys the miserable ones? Sheesh.

   You know, it’s always been true that fundies hate people who oppose them, but it’s also been true that they hate opposition from their own more than anything else. When outsiders oppose them they wear it as a badge of honor. When their own people stand against them, they do everything they can to discredit them, silence them, discipline them, and dismiss them.

   I remember when I was a Junior at BJ they had a big seminary lockdown for several days because a growing number of students were exploring reformed theology. That’s apparently the MO: someone strays from the fundy path and they take whatever ridiculously drastic steps necessary to get them back on the well-trodden way of the chosen few. When students begin thinking for themselves and reading their Bibles, BJ freaks out and shuts down the whole damn seminary to contain the “problem.” When students stand in support of sexual abuse victims, well, they can’t have that either, can they? So they isolate them as much as possible and try very hard to marginalize them.

   Don’t worry, BJ Powers That Be, we are already marginalized in some ways, thanks to you. While all of our colleagues proudly display their diplomas on their office walls, we either don’t display ours or hope no one notices that we graduated from THAT school. Thanks for that!

   1. “A kid popped one of the balloons.” Sounds a bit like the ‘spirit of the PARTY POOPER!’there. The person who did that, did he represent any, some or many who ‘felt the same negative way’ that ‘he did?’ The peaceful quiet, gentle people, all dressed in red, silent protesters, simply wanted to ‘make a statement’ about something they deeply, strongly believed in. And ‘that’s’ deserving of ‘a pop a balloon – sneer?’ “Fundies hate people who oppose them”…
      It’s their ‘hatred of opposition’ which plants their feet ‘in cement’, ‘minds all made up and stuck’in cement, even ‘before’ any possible conversation can be initiated! To fundies, there is ‘no grey-area’ ,’no middle ground’. No wonder there’s no room for objective, rational, reasonable, peaceable, respectful and accepting conversation or dialogue ‘within their narrow culture’! they have no desire to meet with a brother or a sister in the Lord, and celebrate anything that they agree on. even in, their brother and sister actually believe doctrinally speaking, 90 % of the ‘very same doctrines’ of Christianity! But the fundies hate their brothers and sisters, who ‘have different opinions!!??!!! Or even with a peaceful group of people like these good people who took a stand. Not even BJ would lower himself, to come out and talk to them, like a man, like a gentleman. His silence and the silence of his administration, sends a message of ‘BJU bosses really don’t care, really don’t “give a damn,” about anything that they cannot use to ‘make them look good.’ People stuck in cement, ‘can’t walk or move forward.’ I wonder if their attempts to silence the people they successfully control, does not come back on them, in a reaping of, their ending up, ‘silencing’ the very inner voice of both their consciences ‘and’ of their Lord? When they silence the voices of those ‘within’ the dreadful Fundy system,controlling those people they will not allow to dissent or disagree with them, ‘what they dish out’ to people in the system, how does that come right back to ‘them’? Because they will ‘reap what they sow.’ By silencing the message of of others, do they not silence their own. So that the message they speak, is no longer the message of the Gospel. By silencing people, do they not they reap ‘a signifigent loss’ in their own lives of actually ‘silencing themselves?’ from being able to tell the truth about anything????? So that the only thing they can speak to those who listen in adoring silence, is a combination of mixture, religion and man, and the message is so much more ‘man’s message’ than it is ‘God’s’ and no longer really the Lord’s message at all? When they ‘muzzle the BJU herd’, do they not also ‘muzzle themselves.? Something to think about.

3. BTW, this is very appropriate: http://www.jrdkirk.com/2011/12/14/at-work-in-your-midst/

4. Will, if you have never read Eric Hoffer’s THE TRUE BELIEVER, I highly recommend it. He explains so much about the psychology of the in-group and the way “true believers” reserve their strongest hate for OTHER “true believers”: “They hate each other with the hatred of brothers.”

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Believer

   Written in 1951 and still the best book of its kind!

5. Daisy,

   If you like Hoffer, please read Steven Martin’s book (available for free download) entitled “The Heresy of Mind Control: Recognizing Con Artists, Tyrants and Spiritual Abusers in Leadership.” You’ll be amazed, I’m sure.

   http://recognizeheresy.com/default.aspx

6. Bob Jones continues because God is the ultimate judge and sustainer. If God wasn’t guiding this institution, it would not be where it is today. I was born, grew up, and was educated at BJES, BJJH, BJA, and BJU. I have since received a Master’s and Doctorate from secular universities. I do not attend a fundamental church and my professional life as an educator has been in the public sector. What I do know is that the blogs I have read are saturated with cynicism and bitterness. Deny it all you want…this website has no validity and isn’t taken serious by anyone of importance. These blogs will have no affect on BJU. Misery loves company and that is all that is going on here.

   1. Hey Constance…If you do not attend a “fundamental church”, BJU is not happy with you as a graduate. Why is that do you think?

   2. Bob Jones continues because BJU is only ALL ABOUT Bob Jones, and has never really been about anyone or anything else but the three white men who have trained proselytes as bad or worse than ‘them.’If you base ‘your’ validity on your narrow opinions, what happens when your opinions run into the bold clear facts of reality? Your validity goes out the window! The very fact that people wore red on the same day for a worthy united cause protest, and that Phelps resigned from the BJU Board, ‘proves ‘that this blog has had very concrete effect on BJU. An effect that is only the beginning. And if your reading level had been any higher than grade three, you might have seen that. Never mind what other blogs that you read are ‘saturated with.’! What are ‘you’ saturated with? Sawdust? Go eat a banana!

   3. Hey, Constance, I’m not trying to be a smart-ass or anything, but the argument that God must be happy with BJ because BJ still exists is…um…strange. I mean, think about it, why does Mormonism exist and why is it growing in numbers and being highly successful? Would you say it’s because God is guiding that institution? What about Islam? It seems rather successful and growing?

      You see, the existence of an organization says nothing at all about God’s approval of that organization.

      Also, I’m curious about the whole bitterness thing. It seems that every BJ supporter who decides (for whatever reason) to comment on a blog like this has nothing more to say than, “You all are bitter.” Are you serious, or is this a joke? Really. I’m asking. Do you really think that we’re all just a bunch of bitter people? Your dismissive, “Deny it all you want,” does nothing. I absolutely deny it. I’m not bitter. I’ll tell you what I am, though.

      I’m angry.

      There’s a big difference. I was lied to, abused, and oppressed by a fundamentalist system entirely under the guidance of Bob Jones University. What’s more, that system claimed to be doing the work of God in all of its lying, abuse, and oppression.

      I’m angry.

      The Do Right BJU crowd would have good biblical precedent for doing much more drastic things than releasing red balloons. You ought to be applauding them for their effort to peaceably disagree, even if you think they’re misguided. Instead you and your daughter are immature enough to throw, “That’s all you’ve got?” at the demonstrators. Really?

      When I was a student at BJ I heard over and over again, “You and God make a majority.” Just something to chew on, Constance.

      Nobody hates you, Constance. But we do get very tired of fundamentalists dismissing alumni rather than engaging them in dialogue.

      I’ve got an idea: why don’t you pray for us that God will help use our anger at sin to rid the church of sin? Would you do that? Instead of listening to the talking heads at BJ and pretending that we’re all just bitter ignoramuses, understand that many of us are angry at the sin that has hurt so many people and simply want to see change. Then pray that God will use us. Talk with us rather than dismissing us.

      Give it a shot, Constance. You might just be surprised.

      1. Will! Hear Hear! Well Said! I could not have said that any better. Thank you.

      2. Will,

         I will engage you in dialogue. Let’s talk about a key issue, which is how to work for constructive change, and how not to.

         Regarding Do Right BJU, individuals such as Ashley Henry demonstrate a genuine desire to address a real problem in a constructive way. I’ve noticed that Ashley has tried to maintain a tone of good will toward BJU and sometimes corrects gratuitous attacks on fellow believers by admonishing those who comment on the DRBJU Facebook page. I appreciate that. Sadly, she is the exception among those with grievances against BJU.

         Arguments over whether Wear Red Day was a success miss more important points. My son, who is a BJU student, told me that he had not even heard about WRD until Dan Olinger discussed it in chapel last Thursday. Incidentally, Dan had two messages prepared for the day and took an on-the-spot vote of the student body as to which they wanted to hear. So I don’t give much credence to the notion that the administration was propagandizing the student body. For the most part, the demonstration was a non-issue for most students because of two other matters on their minds: final exams and Christmas vacation. The more sinister reasons put forward are wishful thinking.

         One of the more important points being missed is that DRBJU, like the other social media sites related to BJU, has attracted a lot of people who by their own admission do not wish BJU well at all. They give the distinct impression that they have been walking around with rocks in their shoes. Social media give them a platform from which to throw the rocks. One result is a lot of grace-less words, including profanity (i.e., “d____ seminary”), not the first use of profanity on this blog.

         Another result is repeated accusations of having been spiritually abused by BJU or associated pastors. I’m not sure how to make sense of these rhetorically charged accusations. I do not dismiss these automatically, nor do I accept them unquestioningly, as those making them seem to expect and as they often are on the social media sites.

         I try to remember that since we will live together forever in love as brothers and sisters, I should be getting in practice right now. In that spirit I am seeking to build bridges to others, including the disaffected. To do that we must set aside sweeping generalizations. You resent those who call folks like you “bitter” but yet you are certain that “it’s always been true that fundies hate people who oppose them.” That is neither consistent nor helpful nor true.

         Let’s work on praying for one another as you proposed. We all need grace to walk worthy of the calling by which we are called, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ has forgiven us.

         1. Thanks for the dialogue, Stephen. Let’s talk about how to bring about change and how not to. Perhaps a silent protest is not appropriate in your estimation. Maybe you’d be more comfortable if we walked around BJ’s campus naked, like Isaiah, to make a point.

            Come on, Stephen. Camille has pointed out for those who don’t remember history (even recent history), that small protests can have a big impact on societal change.

            As much as I’d like to have an ongoing dialogue with you, Stephen, it seems that we are starting from very different assumptions. Assumptions about means of bringing about constructive change, the legitimacy of hard language (perhaps even the nature of language itself), what constitutes abuse, etc.

            I know you’ll dismiss this next comment, Stephen, but here goes: those on the “inside” never get it. Never. It’s not until you leave it behind that you begin to see fundamentalism for what it is.

            And don’t act like I’ve just said something weird. Christians say the same thing all the time about unbelievers: they can’t understand Christianity and how blind they were spiritually until they embrace Christ.

            So I’m not saying anything radical here. Just some things that fundamentalists are typically unwilling to admit.

            1. Hey Will,

               I was not being critical of DRBJU’s demonstration. As I said, I appreciate leaders such as Ashley Henry who show a sincere desire for constructive change.

               Please explain what you mean by “those on the ‘inside’ never get it.” Do you mean that fundamentalism is irredeemably and intrinsically broken and only those who leave can see that? Do you mean that no fundamentalist ever sees the need for self-correction or change? If you believe that then what would be the purpose of a protest? Clearly, the leaders of DRBJU believe there is hope for change.

               What assumptions do you think that I am making about how to achieve constructive change? Three years ago a group of alumni called Please Reconcile persuaded BJU to issue an apology for its hurtful racial actions. When the apology was published, Tim Tsuei, one of the Please Reconcile leaders, was quoted in a local newspaper as saying, “We rejoice with the university.” I do not sense that kind of generous spirit from most critics now.

               Instead they vilify and demean fundamentalists as cult members who can’t think for themselves and extremists who hate everyone who opposes them. A number of blogs and FB pages have been overtly antagonistic and scornful toward fundamentalists. (This includes the DRBJU page, despite the efforts of its moderators). So, even good efforts are drowned out by the hostile noise. Why would anyone find this sort of belligerent rhetoric persuasive?

               I hope you share this assumption about language: words are tools that must be used carefully, not toys to bully people. You can call profanity hard language, but that does not qualify anyone besides God to damn anyone. Words such as that are usually either gratuitous verbiage or an excuse to vent anger. Is there some Scripture I missed that justifies that?

            2. Hear, hear, Will.

               Stephen, you’re welcome to your opinons about the rhetoric on the DRBJU page. But I wonder — when was the last time you publicly complained about the brutal ways that fundamentalists — including the leadership of BJU — use language?

         2. In order to rationally and objectively ‘work for constructive change’, 1. people need to ‘stop’ doing the very negative kinds of destructive things ‘to’ other people, ‘in’ their relationships that ‘spoil’ the relationships. And that steal the peace and joy and grace from other people’s lives. All forms of wrongful control, like heavy handed discipline, and perfectionist-ic rules is ‘destructive’ . And it is SIN! But BJ and BJU goons don’t see that as sin. They see that as discipline. Yet none of them are being ‘disciplined or chastised by God the Father’ as in Hebrews chapter 12 when they think, believe and act like they do! And Hebrews CH 12 says that if Christians are not being disciplined by God the Father, that they are ‘bastards and not sons!’ And 2. people need to ‘start’ being ‘a part of the solution’ and ‘stop being ‘a continuing part of the problem’! BJU bosses and BJ himself and those trapped in the man’s university and bizarre religious culture, don’t even ‘know’ what the problem(s) is/are there. Or that there even ‘are’ any problems to work through to constructive change! They could CARE LESS about change of ANY KIND. Satan the ‘father of lies’ ,lies to the people there, through the brainwashing in fundyism, that ‘any problem’ that they might have, is ‘their fault’. So they live under constant false guilt, and fear of being blamed for something. It’s like a mean police cop always at the back of their heads or minds, ready to accuse them of some stupid misdemeanor,or an opinion that the goons would’nt approve of, that Jesus wouldn’t even bother thinking about, because such false things the enemy lies to the people about are all the crazy petty religious gobbledy gook, that is continually being empowered by the graceless system at BJU and fundyism. Unfortunately a ‘how to work for constructive change’ to fundies, tends to look a lot like, let’s keep talking about it, without actually doing anything about it. Fundies sure love to hear themselves talk. And while they talk, if you let them, they’ll ‘walk all over you.’ I have a delightful friend now in Heaven who used to say many times in our delightful home Bible study group that ,”There’s too much TALK, and not enough DO.” And was she ever right! Fundies love to talk , but do they ‘really’ want any change? Any DO? And I don’t mean ‘do do’! You see any change to Fundies, really means ‘they’ might need to change. And they really don’t want to change. All that fundies really want to change is other people, whom they are determined to try to ‘change ‘ by coercion and converting people to their narrow, rigid ways of thinking. That is NOT constructive change! That is destructive! That is mind control! One common description of fundies is, that they ‘refuse to change.’ But they insist on the entitlement rights of arrogantly believing they have some kind of a holier than thou mission and right to change others. And I think that’s VULGAR. One reason why people did not like the silent protest on DEc 12, is I believe, because ‘it was something that was out of their control,’ something that they could not control. And fundies do not like things that they can’t control. And they really don’t even know the difference between ‘what sin is’ and ‘what they disapprove of.’ They think and believe that whatever they disapprove of, that ‘that is sin’. Ridiculous! But that is how fundies really think! Fundies do not like anybody doing anything that is ‘not’ in line with their ‘religious treadmill’ of fundyism. People all walking the same, talking the same, going to chapel and church the same, everyone sounding the same and all talking the same . Such people are very easy to control. And the best way to keep them in line, on the religious treadmill, is by ‘fear and guilt’. If more people really knew The True Fear of God, and how completely different it is from ‘The Fear of Man’, they would not give in to such a false and graceless system. The three easiest ways to control people, is by fear and guilt, and by exploiting people’s ignorance of the truth. People’s ignorance of the truth the real Gospel, and of their Godly rights, is a very common and vulnerable weakness, easily used by the religious power brokers. Keeping people ignorant of the truth of their Godly rights and freedoms in God and His Son Jesus Christ, is what power brokers in fundyism exploit all the time. People who don’t believe they even ‘have any rights’, believe the lie that only the leaders and pastors have any rights! Clericalism is a big, big problem in fundamentalism. Clericalism and Elitism in the man-made artificial spiritual class system at BJU and throughout IFB ism., is so rampant and widespread, it is like a pernicious, poisonous disease that , kills the sheep. People in that system talking about constructive change is a pipe dream! Most people in the system are afraid to talk about ‘anything’!If they are teachers, they don’t want to lose their jobs! They have families to support. If they are students, they don’t want to get shipped. They want to graduate someday.And they don’t want to be separated from their student peers. If they are church members, they don’t want to lose their church family and friends. Nor have ‘mean pastors’ who pretend to ‘luv them’ with all that false love and false affection, and deadly deacons who are an extension of their long arm of their cruel rules, ‘shun them ‘ so that their family members can’t even talk to them anymore! The reason Stephen seems to be very free to talk is probably because, other people are a little afraid of him. I do not believe intimidation is right behavior. But Stephen’s strong personality is a gift for him to be able to protect and stand up for his son a student at BJU. Maybe the powers that be, don’t want to clash with the dad of that student? But maybe there are a few exceptions to the rule, when people sometimes need to think twice, and be a little cautious of carelessly clashing with those of us who are taking a stand and standing up for victims of a very serious injustice. I have been doing that very thing for seven months along with my husband. And believe me, people who have invalidated what happened to a person in our parish, are avoiding both of us. But ‘not’ the people who ‘know something was done very, very wrong, and is very wrong right now with a community within this parish. Interesting that ‘they’ , the very people who have also withdrawn, are also the very people who have gratefully validated my husband’s wonderful contribution to the community we have both withdrawn from. When people’s eyes are open to something that is not right, they are also open to those who have been hurt, and support those who are doing something about it. And the head pastor now knows ‘everything.’And God is using him to bring order to what’s gone wrong. Is he ever going to be reigning in the wayward leaders! I do not believe in intimidating people. I believe that is wrong. but I do believe that we all need a whole lot more respect for one another than we see in society and in the churches to day. It’s like a virtue that Christians have so forgotten,as if it has become merely a ‘nice human ideal or an option’,…. something sweetly saccharine that makes people ‘feel good.’ A virtue that, I would say too many Christians have become ILLITERATE in . Is it any wonder then, why there is such a lack, such an absence, such a void, of any true fear of God in so many of the Churches? In fundamentalism”? At BJU? When is the last time any of us have read or heard about BJ truly respecting, truly saying anything respectful, to or about ‘anybody’, outside of his bizarre culture, other than ‘those’ he ‘knows’ follow his religious line of BJU / IFB B.S. hook line and sinker? The man hates people who disagree with him. He hates the government. He hates people in authority. He hates my Church, and I’m Catholic. He hates Billy Graham, the greatest christian statesman and ambassador of Jesus Christ who so effectively preached and lived the real Gospel, in the twentieth Century. WHY do people continue to follow him,follow BJ? When the only person that BJ really follows, is he with the big, ever expanding EGO ‘himself’?!!! I am so fed up with the man. Lord give me strength!!!!

            1. David,

               I’d be happy to discuss my efforts to encourage more Christ-like communication and actions among fundamentalists. But I’ve put some questions up for Will that he has not answered and some questions for Camille a few days ago that she hasn’t even posted. Will said that he wanted to engage in dialogue instead of being dismissed, so the ball is not in my court. You are also free to offer answers, provided that you give something more substantive than “you’re welcome to your opinions.”

   4. Constance, God sustains those things which He is truly ‘behind’, meaning, those things HE really approves of. God does not approve of things which He ‘never’ taught people to do to other people. Such as control people by petty rules and perfectionist- ic discipline. Treating young adults,(BJU students ) like stupid mindless children, and treating adults ( faculty members ) like children, when the administration needs to ‘flex their religious fleshly muscles’ over them with intimidation. “Infantilizing” IS NOT CHRISTIAN BEHAVIOR! It is carnal, selfish, UNGODLY behavior, God does not approve of. People are only treated nicely at BJU ‘as long as they tow the line’ and are perceived as ‘being absolutely submitted’ to all BJU’s STUPID RULES!!!! Just step out of line or express a different opinion, and you will not be liked, treated nicely, or even be safe there. Just appear to be free or different, and you will be marked as ‘not obedient’. The only people who are ‘safe’ there at BJU, are the followers who don’t dare to say anything or speak up, who ‘follow the party line’ Constance,God is not a bully. But all three of the BJ’s have been just that. And whomever they have manipulated to ‘be just like them’ on the administration. The BJ’s and their adoring followers on administration , all have a carnal need ‘for power’, power over people. God is a powerful God but HE only shares ‘His true authority and power’ His ‘right kind of power’, with people He trusts. NOT with bullies HE does not trust. God does not sustain abusive places which abuse the free wills of people He has created in His image, people He loves and cares for with a love that is pure, undefiled, and clean. God’s love has no uncleanness in it, and no wrong motives. BJ doesn’t even ‘need’ God as a true judge. As BJ has deposed God from any place of true authority as God in that awful place. BJ is the supreme judge over it all. BJ does not love his neighbors, he hates Catholics, and anybody who dares to be different. He’s lost his way as a real christian, and is so controlled by negative spiritual things that are so ‘unchristian’ that it gives Separate BJ from BJU, change the name of the place, start running it like a ‘genuine christian university’, and BJU ‘might, just might’, have a chance of really changing for the positive. But as long as BJ and his cronies, run the place, it has no hope of positive change or improvement.It is the MISERY at BJU that people can no longer stand or put up with at BJU, that eventually drives them out and awa, that only truly exits OUTSIDE its religious prison walls. Sorry for this rant, Camille, I just had to say it. Thanks for letting me say it.

7. PS: My daughter, a current student, walked by your “protest” and thought to herself “that’s all you got”? So thankful that she gets it! I pray Satan never takes over her thinking like he has yours!

   1. Hey Constance, if the “all they’ve got” is a whole lot more than what ‘you and your daughter have got’, such as real love for people, real respect for people’s real needs, and real concern for how the bad and wrong things going on at IFB places like BJU,how those bad things really ‘hurt people’s lives’… if the “all they’ve got” is filled with the mercy, grace, compassion, love and understanding ” of the REAL Jesus of the REAL gospels,of RIGHT Bible interpretation, interpretation which, by the way, does not motivate or drive believers into misguided practices, and selfish behavior…. then ‘what they’ve got’ IS the real thing baby. And it is something that ‘you and your daughter’ both need as well. You and your daughter both agree with the ‘herd mentality’ of BJU and IFB ism, because it’s safer to disappear into the religious woodwork of a religious system , be passively mindless, never do any thinking for yourselves, than it is to stand up and be counted as an intelligent free thinking rational ,reasonable individual. Wherever you and your daughter ‘parked your brains’, you both really need to go back there and pick them up again asap, and start using them.

   2. As far as lies go, some people ‘tell them’, some people ‘spread them’. Those who ‘listen to them’, tend to ‘believe them’, then become ‘controlled by them ‘in their minds and thinking. Nobody hates you Constance. But you really are being rather mean and judgemental at accusing Camille of being ‘taken over in her mind by Satan!’ It is the people ‘controlled’ by lies, who falsely accuse those who are ‘free’ from them of being liars and having their minds taken over by Satan . The prisoners inside , taken captive in their minds by the lies of fundamentalism, can’t see the light that is outside of their prison walls and bars. The highly controlling structure within,which controls all the people’s thinking, and the prison bars, represent all of the false security of relying upon things to follow and do that God never told ‘anyone’ to follow or do. People inside believe lies about Christianity and lies about themselves. People on the outside who have escaped, believe the truth about Grace and true freedom. People on the outside who have ‘escaped’ are the people who ‘expose the lies’. Satan hates the truth. Which is why he works so hard ‘twisting’ the truth. God uses people outside the prison walls, to ‘shine His light’ into the darkness that has controlled people’s lives for so long. God also uses those people to bring healing to the wounded. Satan got kicked out of people’s thinking, as soon as they decided that the misery inside fundamentalism, just wasn’t worth the wasted time, energy and religious effort anymore, of trying to please a mean and angry God who ‘wasn’t’ even the Real God in the first place! God never formulated fundamentalism Constance. Arrogant Man did. The ‘real god’ of fundamentalism is not the God of Abraham, Israel and Isaac, but ‘the god of this world of darkness’ who hates everybody. Which is why Un / NON christian fundamentalism ,is so mean and hateful. Nothing bad or negative has ever taken over Camille’s thinking. Camille chose to walk down the path of common sense,and follow the real Love of God, when she realized that she could no longer follow the gracelessness and mercilessness of men who were no longer true leaders following the true Grace of God. The wisdom from above, and ‘a love for the truth’, the ‘real truth’, which is found in JESUS CHRIST and His Wonderful Word, is what influences Camille’s thinking. Constance, you need to re read John chapter 10! And read it with your spiritual eyes open. When you make a dreadful judgement like that on another person, you leave a door open for your life to reap worse spiritual problems than you already have . Remember the Pharisees, were blind and full of hate for Jesus and anyone who opposed them. If you read carefully the Gospels, you will also notice that’ they were afraid of the people.’ They were ‘afraid of the people stopping to follow them.’ Their only real power, was SOUL POWER.And an illegal and unlawful use of power at that. As soon as people stopped following ‘them’ the Pharisees lost ‘all the power’ that they used to have ‘over’ those people. Constance, I pray that you will take another look at Grace, and really find true Grace in the Savior who really loves you. You will never find it in fundamentalism. Only in the Real Jesus. God bless.

8. So you are fairly invested if your daughter attends. . . . I mean, let’s be honest, “Constance.”

   And yes, we had 15. Woolworth sit-ins started with 4. What’s your point?

   We were there for your daughter, “Constance.”

   God bless.

9. Oh no, there is no bitterness here. Bitterness is most obvious when someone has the hardest time seeing anyting good from a place. Camille, harps on every little thing that happened in chapel all the way down to the “sniffle.” Seriously, Camille? If all you want to do is defend children than do that. Your pettiness really betrays your commitment to “defending children.”

   1. Dean, your sarcasm and mocking spirit betrays ‘you’ as a really bitter,anger person. Why are you taking your bitterness, anger and sarcasm out on Camille? This is ‘her’ blog! Camille’s description of the responses and or reactions she felt or sensed, coming from people during the protest time, was simply her personal honesty of ‘expressing her own feelings’ about a day that meant a lot to her and to all those good people who participated in a very historic event. And her exercising her personal constitutional right of freedom of speech. Which happens to be, in your strange mind set, to really ‘not’ be a right of hers at all, but ‘only your’s’! Now I wonder how ‘you’ can come onto Camille’s blog, exercise your freedom and right of expression and free speech, by criticizing Camille ,as if ‘she’ can’t’ do that,say what ‘she’ wants to say, on her ‘own’ blog???!!!!! Come off it Dean! Get a reality check. And get your head out of the sand. You come across as a stuffed religious Ostriche , head in the sand, commenting with very little intelligence, about how ‘you’ are the only one who knows what’s going on,and are the only one who has the ability to speak truth about that. Camille could not possibly be ‘less’ petty. Pettiness is what she left when she left behind when she left BJU and fundamentalism. The pharisees were ‘the princes of pettiness.” They majored on the minors. The problem with ‘the superior attitude’ is that those who ‘have it’ will ‘always’ need to consider other other people as ‘inferior.’ Except of course their ‘flunkies’ and ‘yes men’ bozo friends, who always agree with them about everything!!!! Those who happen to be the ‘birds of a feather who stick together’ crowd. Dean, you may not realize this, but you are coming across as a really mean person.Is that the way you want to be? Meanness is not the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ was a very humble man. Are you a humble person, Dean? Paul said in Romans 8: “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.” Whose are ‘you’ Dean? If meekness and humility have something to do with the Spirit of Christ, then Dean, you’ve got some serious spiritual housekeeping to do. Come down to the level of the Cross of Calvary, and fellowship with humble Jesus. He’s waiting there for you Dean. It’s never too late to repent. It’s never too late to say ‘sorry to God.’ God loves you Dean. He also loves Camille and the other visitors to this blog. Nobody hates you Dean. We want to share Jesus love with you by letting you share your heart and say how you feel. Wow we all know how you feel, so move to the next step, and start speaking truth to yourself, God and us, as to ‘why’ you feel that way. That’s the first step towards healing. HONESTY. God Bless you Dean. You are loved. Even if you hate us, we still love you . God Bless you Dean.

10. Free speech? All for it. We can all say whatever we want, but we must be held accountable for what we say. Isns’t that the point of the “comments” section or are the comments only supposed to be positive? Sarcasm? My first line was sarcastic, yes. It was meant to be. I would expect somebody to be sarcastic to me if I was hyperanalyzing someones sniffle. Humble? Always working on it. Never perfect, but I’m not sure how what I said displayed pride. I was just pointing out how petty and ridiculous it is to deal with someone’s sniffle as “suspicious”(it is actually quite funny if it wasn’t so sad).Repent? I’m daily repenting of my weakensses and asking God to continually change me. I’m thankful for His patience. Hated? I’ve not felt hated although I probably am since I attend the dreaded “IFB church.” Have a great day, Barbara.

    1. Dean, I’m glad we agree on the points that we do. Making fun of someone hearing ‘a sniffle’. Now could that possibly have anything to do with a man making fun of a woman’s feelings and emotions? Hmmm. When is the last time you had a good cry Dean? Tears do not make a man any less of a man Dean. They make a man human. Nobody would hate you for attending an IFB church. They would feel sorry for you, not knowing when you might be the next unsuspecting victim to be ostracized for having a different opinion! Yes we must all be accountable for what we say Dean. So if you say something, explain why you say it and stand behind your words with reasonableness and rationality.If you can answer my challenge as objectively as you have, then you can do the same thing for what you say about Camille. ‘Your first line was sarcastic.” Thank you for your honesty. I respect that. Now if it isn’t too much to ask, ‘why’ were you sarcastic? And ‘who’ is it or ‘what’ is it that you are actually resentful and angry at or about? When you can be truly accountable for what and why, your honesty will reach another credible level. Camille and the people wearing red were very happy and free doing something that they really believed in Dean. And none of them were angry, resentful or sarcastic when they were doing that were they? Or do you just assume that they were? Like were you projecting how angry you felt onto them and transferring ‘your responsibility’ for ‘your emotions and feelings of anger’ onto ‘them’. And blaming ‘them’ for making you feel angry? People do this all the time. They do this because they’re unhappy and don’t know how to get relief from their unhappiness. As I said before, honesty is the best first step to freedom from the unhappiness of denial about one’s anger. Have a good day Dean.

    2. Dean, I wanted to add about free speech and freedom, that, freedom needs to come with responsibility for one’s behavior and treatment of people. freedom ‘without’ responsibility,can easily be ‘license’ or ‘no control’. We do not have a right to ‘have our freedom’ at another person’s expense. Meaning we do not have a right to ‘hurt people’ with our manner of exercising our freedom to ‘do and say’ whatever we want. so if we avoid this ‘against- ness’ and avoid the selfish desire ‘ to ‘hurt’ people, we will be much better able to practice our freedom within the right boundaries of true christian behavior which must be truly respectful. have a great day, dean.

11. (Ephesians 4:29-32) Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.

    (Ephesians 4:32) And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

    1. Rick, these powerful Scripture verses are probably some of the ‘best’ if not, the ‘best’ Scriptures to PRAY for one another! Especially for Healing at BJU. Especially for ‘our’ ,for ‘my’ attitudes to let God ‘change’,’me’, so I don’t shoot my mouth off in the wrong way. Something that is so easy for me to do since I seem to have such a big one. Thanks for reminding me of my own spiritual need to obey God in this area, ‘from my heart!’. Do we realize,that if we all really took these precious words of our Lord seriously, prayed them with all our hearts, and committed our behavior and our ‘tongues’ to God, asking Him for the Grace to really LIVE THEM, in our lives, ‘what a difference God’s Word’ could ‘really’ make in our lives? Thanks Rick for reminding me of my need for this. God Bless.

12. I am grateful for the students and alumni who showed up on campus. I believe in you and applaud your courage.

    ~ wore red in Seattle

    1. I’ve never been in a protest before. But when I first read the post, I was so touched by it, it felt like there was something so special,that it was like something sacred had just taken place. I almost felt like I was near some holy ground. I was speechless. I was so moved. I admire the stand the people took, and all the people who wore red elsewhere. This is the beginning of something that will grow. I so admire the Godly character of all who participated. I believe we are all called to ‘lead by good example. Camille does that, no doubt about it. But Camille, I believe is ‘a leader of leaders.’ Bringing good people together for a worthy cause, is so important. And she has been doing just that. I think everybody who respects her mission, are seeing the beginning of new fruit growing in a cause that is just starting to blossom. I think it’s wonderful. God Bless.

13. Congratulations, Camille, on your person of the year status. Love the picture, too. May God use this event to His glory.

14. Camille, when I read under the creeds you ‘do’ believe in saying, “St. Nick”, I took you literally. And I’m not a ‘literalist! I thought you meant St. Nicholas, or his commercial descendant, Santa Clause. Thanks for that one. This has really made my day! I’m so d–n tired from waking up too early this morning. I really needed a good laugh. Thanks. By the way, I think your silent protest day on the 12 th., was a wonderful success. I so admire your patience and self-control of not reacting to the ‘mockers’, and not letting their buckets of cold water, touch your the love, peace and joy of the lord in your life or in the lives of the other protesters. Your peaceful, loving statement that day, is such an authentic witness of the Savior you and the other protesters really love and obey. It really is a beginning of something something historic, that I suspect BJ does not know WTH to do about! I think you dear people ‘planted a seed’ of something very beautiful. Won’t it be exciting to see how our dear Lord helps it to grow! I’m getting excited about this. God Bless!

15. By the time 12/12 arrived, the admins of the DRBJU page had changed/restated their goals several times, but the end result was that they said this was not a protest; it was a display of support for abuse victims.

    They were repeatedly adamant about this clarification, but the posters to that page made it confusing. Some continued to call it a protest. Others (especially the admins) reiterated the changes to express that it was an act of support– some posters even accused anyone not willing to wear red to be pro-abuse.

    If it was meant for support only, I don’t think anything changed; no history was made. I know people who wear red every Friday to show their support of the military, and BJU allows this. I don’t think they have ever released balloons also, but I doubt the school would mind.

    Your surprise at their averted eyes is only reasonable if you approached it as a show of support, rather than a protest. I don’t know any organization that would talk to a former employee who came on or near their property in protest.

    If you decided that this, for you personally, would be a protest, you were not in alignment with the stated goals of the DRBJU group. It makes me wonder if you were on your own or if the DRBJU page was lying, or what.

    But you can’t have it both ways. If it was a protest of course nobody would engage you in conversation.

    If was an act of support, I can understand why you might expect more interaction, but the issue was that the students really didn’t know what it was – at least the ones I talked to. There were so many different views being expressed on the DRBJU page that most of them decided to steer clear of the whole thing. They didn’t know if talking to you would mean that they agreed with a protest or that they were showing support for abuse victims. In that sense, the whole effort was poorly communicated, and I think that showed in the lack of current students who wore red.

    1. But you can’t have it both ways.

       Sure we can. This was the Alumni part of it. We can protest the terribly insensitive lack of support for sexual abuse victims in the BJU community at large as well as show our support for those victims.

       Two sides of the same coin. We get to decide that. Not you.

       1. Heck — if you talked to the 15 of us, we all stated fifteen different reasons for being there. We’re not robots.

          ::rolleyes::

          The media called it a protest. A protest with balloons. 😀

          There’s no way we can make the Powers that Be happy. No way. That’s the nature of any statement of independence. Those of us there realized that years ago. Nothing we can do can make them happy. Nothing. Either we’re too fat or too feminine or too masculine or too outspoken or too inconsistent or irrelevant or useless or failed or whatever.

          Besides the phones have been “ringing off the hook” I’m told over at the GCPD since Monday. . . . CNN’s coverage of the story got 40,000 views. I’m not thinking this was a failure.

          As one participant said on that day, “I’m here so to encourage one student to find her voice long before I did. It took me way too long. They need to find it sooner.”

          So these were voice lessons. And yeah, there’ll be critics. I’m with TR on the critics.

       2. I agree Camille. “You get to decide that. The critics ‘don’t’!” It is ‘the protesters’ who get to set the agenda and purpose for the protest. ‘NOT’ the negative whiners , complainers and critics, who ‘disapprove’ of your blog and of what you people freely choose to talk about and do! People who don’t like something have a right to their own opinions. But not to pontificate over your blog or the reasons for or how your protest. Other people’s negative opinions do not change the facts or the dates about precious people’s personal lives, the victims of terrible injustices and abuse.You have archives that are an accurate record of the injustices people are protesting about. You’ve got the facts . You’ve got the dates. The whiners think they have a right to ‘pontificate’ over other people’s blogs and protests. I’m glad you remind them that, THEY DON’T. Merry Christmas Camille. God bless you and your dear family. Thank you for your faithful , courageous work for the Lord. You are an inspiration to all of us. xxxxxxxx !!!!!!!!

    2. Cycleman, I think you may be assuming possibly presuming something here, that really is not at all, any part of the true motivations behind the protest. That somehow, Camille and the others in red, were somehow there doing what they were doing, to ‘get attention’ for themselves because they had some spiritual or emotional ‘need for attention!’When they were there for others, for abuse victims, and to draw attention to BJU’s and IFB’s responsibility to get real, honest, and start practicing genuine obedience to the law of the land re abuse victims, and the spiritual laws of Christ re Godly/ righteous practices. BJU and IFB systemic fundamentalism, not only ‘do not care’ about the laws of the land, they also do ‘not really even care’ about the spiritual laws of Christ, OR about people they hurt allow to be hurt and refuse to help when they are hurt. The protest was about all of these reasons and more. The people ‘in control’ in BJU and IFB, only care about themselves, as they use their warped concept Christianity as ‘a religion law unto themselves, making themselves their own lawmakers, and making laws in their own weak and misguided fallen humanity and human authority. Their defiance of moral law and the laws of the land is epidemic, systemic and ‘out of control.’ If Camille and the others in red, had been there for such an immature emotional ‘need’ as to want and need to get attention for themselves, Cycleman, their social behavior would have been quite different, even selfish and immature.Doing something that other people disagree with and disapprove of, does not make what other people do necessarily selfish or immature. Simply because you don’t like what people did who were on the protest, doesn’t mean that they were ‘wrong.’ Their social behavior was anything but selfish or immature. And because they were happy, peaceful and felt good about their protest during and after, they were free to feel in whatever positive way they wanted to feel, as they all knew that they had followed through on something good that they all believed in for a collective protest gathering of many good reasons. These alumni are fairly together people, although I do not believe any of them would presume to have it ALL together. They ‘know’ they are on a journey,they ‘know’ their need of God’s Grace, and they are supporting each other in that journey. They did not ‘need’ to be there at BJU on a protest, to make themselves ‘feel good’. They were there at BJU to ‘do something good’ and do that in a peaceful, respectful manner. When they were there in red, to bring attention to ‘the serious problem’ of both abuse and the callous neglect of abuse victims, to imply that Camille and fellow alumni plus brave students in red, were ‘there’ for other than a righteous cause, is really casting negative suspicion upon their true motives. If you wondered ‘why’ they were there and doing that, why didn’t you ‘ask God’ directly? The people who posted thoughtless comments about the protest and the protesters, did that to deliberately ‘hurt’ people’s feelings. Why? Because they really have no respect for other people’s feelings. If they did, they would never talk like that. thoughtless posters posted negative comments to to get attention to ‘themselves’. And when they did that, they showed the rest of us, the true colors of how really resentful and angry they were and felt about the protest. They also did that to try to get people to ‘agree with them.’ Belligerence is such a negative, nasty, mean spirited, unpleasant behavior to show up in its’ true colors’ around us when it does. It’s so ‘mean’! So thoughtless. Belligerent posters post what they do to attention for ‘themselves, and to try to get people to agree with them. It’s really the belligerent posters who only want to ‘share their misery.’ Not the peaceful protesters and honest bloggers who are only trying to share their hearts,their pains, frustrations as they work through their hurt, pain and anger from their fundy past. I think you’re not thinking through to a logical and reasonable conclusion, the whats and whys of the protest. and that you have simply wanted to jump to conclusions because you have a need to criticize. If you take more time to think about what you;re thinking and why, and talk to God about it, honestly, you might just be a little surprised at what He shows you.

    3. Hey Cycleman, Dr. Lewis Blog is NOT DRBJU! Nor does Dr. Lewis’s well led ‘protest’ and goals for such protests, have to do with ‘any, most, or all’ of DRBJU’s so called stated or unstated, changing or confused goals. And why should they? Each blog is a completely separate entity, with its own moderator. Each blog is within the moderator’s own personal autonomy.And none of them have to answer to BJ or any of his cronies. Which is one reason why such blogs are so resented by fundies and those who control their lives! No one can shut them down! That’s real freedom. Some people are ‘all’ for freedom, just as long as ‘they’ can have ‘all’ or ‘most’ of it for their selfish selves, and undermine and weaken the true freedom of others. You surely don’t expect another blog to have ‘exactly the same clarity’ as a well developed blog such as Camille’s. DRBJU is a ‘baby’ in the blog culture. And nobody is criticising it. it’s just a new kid on the block, that’s all. And nobody knows what kind of pressure the BJU students who wore red on the 12 th., may find themselves ‘under’ after Christmas, and ‘before’ second term begins! What if some of them get fingered for the dreaded pink slip of getting ‘shipped?’ And told ‘don’t bother to return’? BJU is ‘not a nice place’, Cycleman. If it ‘was’, people wouldn’t be getting hurt there like they do. Camille’s blog is ‘miles ahead’ of DRBJU’s blog, in well developed clarity and focus. Simply because DRBJU may be ‘all over the board’ in trying to find it’ direction and focus, and was mainly set up to draw attention to the need for Phelps to be removed from the board,which has happened as the man voluntarily resigned, and DRBJU not intentionally set up for any planned protest, why would Camille’s protest have anything to do with DRBJU at all, or agree at all about anything with DRBJU re DRBJU’s focus or lack of same ? Camille and fellow protesters don’t need ‘anybody’s approval to plan and practice a protest! But it sounds like somehow they apparently need ‘your’s’ as well as the presumptuous approval of the very others who resented the protest ! If DRBJU has been struggling with their focus, goals, and directions to take, and what and how to take them, in changing this or that, why on earth would you expect Camille’s protest to follow ‘their blog’s goals?’ Just as each alumni had their own personal number of perfectly good and different reasons for participating in the protest, also each blog has its own emphasice and means of expressing what people want to say on them. Fundamentalist pulpit power brokers, ‘do not like’ freedom of expression, unless of course, such freedom is coming ‘solely from’ those who can ‘completely control’ it, those who assume to have ‘all the rights’ to both say and do whatever the H they want to with and around other people’s lives. Control is the game. And religion is the name. And It’s all done in the presumed name of God! When people ‘leave’ fundamentalism, they do not come on blogs to ‘share’ their misery. They come on blogs to share their ‘escape from misery’, the misery they left behind in miserable fundamentalism. They come on blogs to share their journey of healing and cleansing from everything in their former lives that made them ‘miserable.’ The poster who posted ‘ misery likes company’, is so projecting that it’s not funny. I know this may not be that scriptural or theological, but there is a beautiful word called MERCY which I like to call ‘the best replacement’ for misery. And I believe when ex fundies rediscover the Grace of God, for the first time when exiting the painful culture of fundamentalism, I believe they also begin to experience the true Mercy of God. And God then starts cleansing their broken lives of all the misery of fundamentalism with HIS wonderful Mercy. I really believe that. I would like to replace what that negative poster said, misery likes company with, Mercy likes company. God doesn’t dish our misery. Miserable people do that. they dish out their own pain onto other people. And God says, He will reveal His Mercy to the merciful, to those who ‘know’ they need it. I love God’s mercy.

    4. Cycleman, the students who wore ‘red’ were the ‘involved.’ And the students who did ‘not’ wear red were the ‘uninvolved.’ Naturally those ‘uninvolved would ‘not know’ or ‘understand’ what the protest was about! Neither would they be ‘interested’ as they also had exams and holidays on their minds. Who ‘wouldn’t!’ The Chuckle’s Travels link on this post, clearly explains ‘what’ the students in red ‘goals’ really were. And I see no confusing or changing goals whatsoever. you really say things that undermine the credibility of brave students who took a brave stand. try to show more respect for other people, Cycleman! A good place to start can be with these wonderful students! Why don’t you read the chuckle’s Travels link for yourself, instead of doing your ‘opinion spinning generalizations’. You’re free to share your ‘opinions’ on this blog. But don’t expect the rest of us to ‘accept’ them as the gospel truth of Cycleman, as if your opinions were somehow the ‘iron – clad’ infallible conclusions that we ‘all’ need to arrive at! We all share our opinions. But we do that with an honest desire and genuine interest in the facts ‘and’ the truth. Any matter in discussion, serious problems , wrong doing, injustices, that we discuss, we also want these ‘exposed’. We need a lot more than personal opinions for real facts and truth to be understood. BJU doesn’t like ‘any truth’ that is ‘inconvenient’ to them, to their questionable agenda. We need facts and like Camille says, “show me the dates.” You only show us opinions, questionable facts that really require ‘a reality check’, and no dates. When you presume and assume things like you do, you do that without checking the ‘facts’ and without even ‘thinking about’ what you ‘think’ you’re talking about. The fact that the Chuckle’s Travels link tells of the Education Ministry Inspector General being ‘interested’ in BJU protest students possibly being intimidated by the BJU brass, speaks volumes, as to the far reaching effects and influence this protest was having, even ‘before’ the protest took place! So, Cycleman, read and find out before you make conclusions. God doesn’t empower ‘thought police’ to spy on young College students! God is not a ‘thought cop’ looking for people to punish for ‘not agreeing’ with the people in power. Where Constitutional Rights are being violated such as by intimidation and threats to students, I think it’s time for action! Can’t wait for the next protest to take place. Looking forward to when it does.

16. I agree with you on that. You can decide to be there for both reasons. My point is that it’s illogical to think that they would welcome you back to the school in a protest situation. Your post indicated that you were disappointed you were not well-received as returning alumni. I didn’t see the communication asking how they could get you to visit, but I doubt it meant, “Come back and protest us – we’d love to see you again.”

    I still maintain that the protest part of it was not in line with the DRBJU agenda, so again, working through the logic, that means there were two groups there that day. One was showing support for abuse victims and another was showing support and protesting. In my opinion, this confusion hindered the effort.

    You don’t have to agree with my opinion, but I am free to form it based on what I’ve read online in various places and heard from students.

    1. You don’t have to agree with my opinion, but I am free to form it based on what I’ve read online in various places and heard from students.

       Never said otherwise.

       My point is that it’s illogical to think that they would welcome you back to the school in a protest situation.

       It’s only illogical in BJU-land. It’s not at all illogical in any other environment. Not at all. We were not yelling. We were not marching. We weren’t even singing. We were showing up. And hugging. And smiling. . . . You know, what friends do.

       BJU needs to drop the fear of everyone who’s not-them and grow up.

    2. Cycleman, the silent, respectful protestors were not ‘going back with an emotional ‘need’ for some warm, fuzzy welcome mat to be rolled out for them. They were not there for ‘themselves’. They were there for ‘others.’ If any of them had ‘needed’ a welcome mat rolled out for them, their social behavior would have been a lot different, vocal and demonstrative, in such a way as to ‘draw attention to ‘themselves.’ None of them needed the approval of the BJU administration to be there. They were not there to ‘please man.’ They did not go on the protest because they ‘needed attention’ for themselves. They went there because young people at the institution and other related fundamentalist environments, NEEDED PROTECTION from abuse. And abuse victims need to be protected from the kinds of awful things that Tina Anderson went through.. validation, help, healing , and to be treated like a human being with human dignity. Protection, validation, help and healing, were all important things NO known abuse victims, really ever got ‘anywhere, anytime, from anyone’ who had the power and authority to provide the validation, help and healing abuse victims needed. Protesters weren’t there for ‘themselves’ They were there for ‘others’. The others being, abuse victims, They did not ‘need’ the approval of the Instititution for their various reasons and heart motivations for going on the protest. They’ve been moving ‘beyond’ the carnal need for ‘the approval of man’ ever since they started to embrace true Grace, and began their healing journey out of fundamentalism. They went there to make a point about victims who were abused ,not protected after being abused, then even re victimized, by being blamed for being victims. “It would be illogical to think that they would welcome you back…”An intelligent and healed ex-fundmentalist would ‘never’ expect to be ‘welcomed back’ by people who had so ‘dishonored them’ who then ‘drove them away’. In the first place,the BJU administration ‘can’t stand them!’. Cycleman remember who the people really ‘are’ who are doing the mean name-calling! It’s NOT the protesters. But the BJU brass who ‘can’t stand’ the people who do or say anything that makes them look ‘less than perfect.’ “One was showing support for abuse victims, and another was showing support and protesting.” They were ALL there ‘showing support for abuse victims’, PLUS they were also there for other perfectly valid ,good reasons for being on that protest. Support for abuse victims was the main, single reason for the protest. And to bring attention to the need for protection for people from possible future abuse. The most important one uniting reason for the protest was for the abuse victims. The main reason was showing support for the abuse victims. Maybe you need to watch the 20 / 20 special again, on-line, to let the seriousness of this kind of sinful evil, sink in. These precious people have been abused by so called born again christians. And the law can’t do anything about it, because people continue to deny such things are even going on, and stubbornly refuse to report it! Maybe you need to exchange your strange ‘logic’ for reasonable, rational, objective thinking, and add to that LOVE. Abuse victims aren’t forensic specimens to be logicized by people who intellectualize their human pain and suffering! Abuse victims need to be cared for, loved, protected and healed. I think you’ve completely missed the point and purpose of the entire protest! Your post comments remind me of my late father’s comment on what he was reading in a book on socical behavior and psychology. The church past had asked dad to lead the youth group that year. And the lord was using that to ‘bring dad to life.’ Dad was sitting in the Living room when I was sitting at the Baby Grand Heinzman piano practicing for my royal conservatory piano exams, at UOT faculty of music. Dad had just read this funny line in the book when he said to me, “Barb listen to this”, as he laughed about it. “A man went into an elevator and said “Good Morning” to another man in the elevator. The other man replied, “what do you mean by that?!!!!” Cycleman, I think you may be a little like that ‘other man’ in the elevator. God Bless you, and Happy New Year.

17. A protest is a protest, regardless of how peaceful it is, and most organizations would not engage protesters in conversation.

    It’s not just BJU. I work for a secular company; if they knew that a former employee and friends were going to protest on or near their property, they would ignore them. I’m trying to think of an example where a company talked to the people protesting – I wouldn’t be surpised if it has happened, but I think it’s rare.

    Because they ignored you doesn’t mean they feared you. Most companies hire security to surround a protest. I think BJ showed grace and maturity to just let you do your thing. It was the opposite of fear; if they feared you, they would have escorted you from campus. Again, your logic evades me.

    This is not the first time a situation like this has happened. I know of others, such as someone on campus who was required to fulfill a duty and disagreed with the situation – loudly, in front of both peers and authority. Some peers agreed, but they all went to the public event as planned. The authorities and peers were well aware that some were protesting – it showed, even though not all people there knew what was going on.

    That’s just one example of a peaceful protest that was allowed to take place, so to say that your protest was a huge change and historic is incorrect. Peaceful protests have taken place on campus before, even if you did not know about them. This may have been the first protest for this specific cause, though.

    Many people protest peacefully like this – boycotting a store or product, etc. I guess almost everyone is the Person of the Year, and that’s a nice thing.

    1. I work for a secular company

       Doesn’t compare. And this is why:

       if they knew that a former employee and friends were going to protest on or near their property, they would ignore them

       ALUMNI don’t exist for “companies.” They aren’t trying to get ALUMNI on their corporate property. We’re ALUMNI.

       It’s a university that desperately needs its alumni support and needs to prove its responsiveness to its constituency to get the coveted SACS accreditation it’s just talking about.

       I know of others, such as someone on campus who was required to fulfill a duty and disagreed with the situation – loudly, in front of both peers and authority. Some peers agreed, but they all went to the public event as planned. The authorities and peers were well aware that some were protesting – it showed, even though not all people there knew what was going on

       Dates. I want dates. Show me.

    2. Because they ignored you doesn’t mean they feared you. Most companies hire security to surround a protest. I think BJ showed grace and maturity to just let you do your thing. It was the opposite of fear; if they feared you, they would have escorted you from campus. Again, your logic evades me.

       You really are quite uninformed about the whole issue. You didn’t hear the faculty meeting where this was discussed. You haven’t received the threats yourself personally. You are unfamiliar with the fear. When you get called a “miserable wacko,” you’ll begin to understand the reality.

       1. Camille,

          I would have been quite happy to chat with you and the others there on Monday had I been able to go. But I’m confused.

          During the many months that I have read your blog and Twitter page, I don’t recall a single positive statement about BJU, only a steady stream of criticism. Your post here is more of the same–incessant criticism, with not even a sniffle beyond your suspicion. You have made it clear that you think that BJU is beyond help.

          So why complain about a cool reception? Prior to showing up for one hour to smile, hug and carry red balloons, what had you done in the previous four years to encourage a friendly encounter with your fellow believers at BJU?

          1. Hey Stephen, Happy New Year. My response to: “what had you done in the previous four years to encourage a friendly encounter with your fellow believers at BJU?” Stephen, don’t you ‘get it’ yet???!!! That BJU bosses, who do not respect rights and freedoms of opinions, and like-minded faculty and students, who are afraid of expressing their own, who call fellow believers such as Camille and her little band of silent -protest over-comers and recoverers from fundamentalism, “miserable wackos” DON’T WANT reasonable, respectful dialogue, conversation or sociable interaction with ANYBODY, least of all with fellow believers whom they consider ‘beyond hope’ for being ‘ex-fundies’, who have somehow lost all of their Godly their rights and freedoms, to be honored, respected, accepted and loved as fellow believers anymore. It is the leaders within BJU who are the real ‘schismatics’ who have chosen to withdraw their christian ‘fraternal love’, from other believers they ‘can’t stand.’ Why should BJU bosses and like minded faculty members, ‘love people’ that they ‘can’t stand’? When it is easier to hate than it is to love? People whom they have declared from their arrogant hearts, that ‘don’t deserve’ to be loved, respected, honored or accepted anymore as fellow believers, let alone be treated as real persons? All such accusers want, is to practice the easy cop-out religious game, of blame / shifting, against those bad, bad simply ‘awful’ people who ‘won’t agree with them,’ and stroke and coddle them in their strange version of Christianity. I thought God wanted His children to agree with HIM! Apparently BJU / fundy belief system states otherwise. That people must agree with THEM! I thought that agreeing with God , that such a agreement, had something to do with HIS WORD!. Does not agreeing with God’s Word have something to do with Jesus New commandment, and that those who ‘really’ love Jesus, are those who ‘really’ KEEP his commandments? Maybe some of us need to allow God to give us a refresher course in His Gospels, this New Year, and let the Blood Of Jesus, cleanse and wash us of our stuffy, religious lives of any religious substitutes, that we people may have replaced the REAL Gospel with! Such would be a pretty good thing to practice at the start of a New Year. What about all of us who call ourselves christian, realizing that, if we call ourselves christian, then we accept the personal responsibility to ‘act like Christians.’ The kind that Jesus Christ would want to ‘hang out with.’ And be willing to extend real Christian love, towards fellow believers, not just those we prefer in our little small-minded religious clubs! Maybe we all need to Let God refresh our memories, about Truth as God sees and says, Truth is, by respecting the rights and freedoms of others to express their own views and opinions, without being falsely accused of ‘only criticizing and complaining.’ It may be because you just do not like ‘anybody’ saying ‘anything’ about BJU that you don’t like, agree with , or approve of, ( and you do have a right to express your own opinion even when it’s a negative one, so why don’t you respect Camille’s same right to express a negative opinion about people’s unchristian practices, and an Institution that threw her and her husband out like so much BJU road kill, a few years ago? ) as to why you accuse Camille and others on her blog of only criticizing the University, and of believing it is ‘beyond hope.’ I personally do not believe that Camille, her fellow Alumni in the protest, or the almost seventy BJU students in the protest, , would have ever wanted to plan or be a part of such a silent,respectful protest, had they believed that BJU was beyond hope. as such a protest would have no real meaning. I do see something of a flaw in the illogic of that statement, that Camille has about BJU.. She holds no animosity against any people. She is only against the ‘bad practices’ of people. Camille is against what people have been doing to other people, mean and selfish practices, that Jesus would never, ever do to people. There are many ex-fundi alumni who have been faithfully praying for BJU for years, who have not given up on the possibility of God bringing a fresh wind of true Grace and positive change to the Institution. Camille has enough grace and wisdom in her life, to be able to objectively and rationally, separate ‘person’s’ from the wrong ‘practices’. And she does not attack people whose wrong practices she exposes. She exposes and opposes ‘the wrong practices’ of such people. Any people who do not speak only ‘glowing things’ about BJU, are deemed ‘evil-doers’, ‘wrong-doers’ who need to be falsely accused of, say, miserable wackos. It’s really a concrete example of the irrational attack mode people automatically go into, against anyone who they disagree with. “You’re wrong.” And you’re also “no good!” If the Faculty and bosses at BJU were truly happy people, spiritually and emotionally free, they would not attack people who disagree with them, or call them “miserable wackos”. One main reason why ‘leaders’ in the churches CONTROL is because they are INSECURE. Another other big reason is that three letter word called EGO. I also believe such leaders are Biblically Illiterate. They replace the spirit of the word with the Letter. And the Letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. BJU bosses ‘made themselves’ enemies of Camille and her husband, by treating them like they did a few years ago. People who irrationally perceive other people coming into a personal revelation of God’s Grace,as something to be ‘afraid of’, because they might not be able to ‘control them anymore’….. doesn’t that sound just a little similar to the Pharisees of Jesus day, Stephen? In the Gospels it reads in some verses, that, “they were afraid of the people.” They were afraid of the people coming against ‘them’ at a time when so many people were following Jesus teaching. They were also afraid of ‘losing their control’ of the people. BJU bosses drive good people out and off the faculty, whom they deem ‘a threat to their agenda.’ That’s how insecure they are. If they were truly secure in their faith in Jesus Christ, their behavior and practices would show the true fruit thereof. They would not use wrong things as substitutes for for true righteousness. I did not read any suggestion that Camille ‘complained’ about a cool reception. Camille simply made an objective observation of what she believed to ‘be’ a cool reception. People walking by her, not wanting to even look her in the eye? That sounds like just a little shame perhaps of their unchristian attitude towards her? As well as the fact that grown adults on the faculty, are being controlled by the merchants of fear BJU bosses? Now I wonder if that had anything to do with their own embarrassment of following beliefs and leaders, who are not truly following what Jesus teaches in the Bibles that these so called Bible believing Christians profess to believe? Camille has never ever made such a presumptuous statement as to the fact that ‘BJU is beyond hope.’ You really have projected a lot of your own fears and unresolved issues with what you think believe is right and what you think you believe is wrong about the whole issue. I’m not surprised that Camille did not respond to your presumptuous projections. It’s Camille’s blog and she and her blog friends can say whatever they want to. But Camille has the right to hold all of us to her standards. she also has the freedom to decline to respond to your ridiculous conclusions. She sets the rules. And she respects the rights of others. I think she has demonstrated the patience of JOB towards Christians such as yourself, Stephen, who continue to misread her motives and actions. And she lets you express your own opinions, without complaining or whining that you don’t never agree with her. I think you owe her a lot more respect than you have been willing to demonstrate to her in your posts. Happy New Year, Stephen, and think about taking up that challenge, about letting the true spirit of Cjhr9st in the Gospels, change our lives. we all need deeper conversion Stephen. Salva, after which all we need is a lot of religious information..

             1. Stephen, I apologize for my typos ,missing words near the the end of my post, and a sentence tha realize know how tired I was, as I was still resting up after my Saturday mid-day return from a dynamic Christian conference in U.S. I meant to say, …and think about taking up that challenge about letting the true Spirit of Christ, along with the Gospels, Jesus being the Living Word, not the letter (or religion ) change our lives. We all need ‘deeper conversion’, Stephen. As I believe that Salvation is a whole lot ‘more’ than a one time committment experience, after which believers simply assume all they need to do is add to that, a lot of religious information. “Knowledge puffs up. But charity edifies.” Salvation is a journey, a process. Some of can easily forget that. It’s so easy for us to take the most important things for granted. Let’s all really make this year count for Jesus, and support one another. And stop giving in to the temptation of tearing each other down. I’m not suggesting that you were ever trying to tear anyone down. But it ‘is’ so easy for us to do that with our careless words. Especially when we do not think before we blurt out judgements or conclusions with projection with words that may be laced with a subtle degree of thoughtlessness. I say this with all sincerity, Stephen, that I believe you really love your Alma Mater BJU, and that you want to believe the best of it. I respect that. And so does God. Be blessed and have a wonderful New Year.

       2. Camille, I remember being called to my face, “Emotionally unbalanced”. And only because I wrote some leaders privately stating my concerns that they didn’t want to hear. That insult was the last conversation I ever had and the last time I ever saw that leader. The following day I told my husband what I had been called, and he said “SHOOT THE MESSENGER!” I just found ‘the memo trail’ link on the web, your spotless student record , you’re having been a model student, and a glowing letter from Stephen Jones who had been your grateful student. Written to you not long before the BJU Bosses started lowering the boom on you. For anyone there to call you ‘a miserable wacko’ defies logic! I hope most of the phone calls ringing off the hook were positive ones. The intensity and extreme negativity and meanness of the opposition following the successful protest, really is a sign that ‘you faithful few’ really ‘struck a nerve in Rat Fink Satan’s solar plexis! How a model student who later became a model teacher could be called ‘a miserable wacko’ just goes to show how much they need to throw up smoke screens out there, to hide the light from the people still trapped inside. If they ‘weren’t’ afraid of the protest, they would not have reacted like they did. You know who your real friends are. And they all know what a real mensche ( human being ) you are. Keep up the good work, Camille. You’re one of my heroes.

    3. “Most organizations would not engage protesters in conversation.” Cycleman, how do you know that? Isn’t that a rather ‘sweeping generalization’? Have you attended most organizations who had most protests to be ignored by most bosses of them ? It’s so easy to exaggerate, isn’t it. And we know how the media do that for the purpose of ‘spin.’ You are spinning with words and generalizations, but without clear facts about whatever you think you’re talking about. A strike is a form of a protest, but management doesn’t engage strikers in conversation. The Union leaders do that at the bargaining table. See the difference? There’s a pre- set structure in place. Secular companies that don’t take good care of their employees make for themselves ‘bad publicity’ that comes at a high cost to their reputation, when UN listened to ,and DIS respected workers’ grievances get out to the public’s ears. A company’s head people would be stupid to not take the time to find out ‘what’ people were protesting about and ‘why’! It takes years to build good relationships with customers and a good reputation for delivering a reliable product or service. It takes a lot less time than that, to ‘ruin’ a good reputation and to lose the trust and respect of customers and clients, which usually cannot be restored. People do not like to be ‘burned’ or ‘ripped off’. BJU isn’t interested in why people protested on the 12 th. Mainly because BJU isn’t really interested in people as persons, who have feelings, needs, dreams, individual rights, and a free will. BJU cares only for what people will give them, like their $$$$$$ , hard work from their faculty and other staff, and the adoring endorsement promotion of all who really think and believe that BJU is ‘the cat’s meow’! Keep in line and they treat you fine. Step out of line and the sun won’t shine. Step out of line and they will ‘try to break you’. “Not all people there knew what was going on”… the students there who chose to ‘not’ be involved, that was their free will choice. Remember, it takes a lot of courage to swim upstream, stand out from the herd, and be different. Lack of information, information control, and intimidation to silence from discussion of whatever the goons there do not approve of, that is very, very controlling. I’m not at all surprised that ‘not there all knew what was going on’. Not all there wanted to know. If BJ had ever one time, showed any grace and maturity, to those he ‘can’t stand’ which includes everyone who disagrees with the man,( I wonder how much GOD disagrees with BJ??) such a protest would have never been necessary in the first place, Cycleman! “Because they ignored you doesn’t mean they feared you.” How do you know? Places with the awful kind of reputation that BJU has, have ‘a lot to fear’ because they have ‘so much to lose’! Remember what the Gospels say about the Pharisees? They were reluctant to go after Jesus too soon, because of their jealousy that the people were following HIM and because less were following them. “They were afraid of the people.” People who run BJU have such a high powered agenda of control, that to keep their power, they have to control everything. The ‘more’ people like that ‘have’ to control, the ‘more’ they have to ‘lose’ if and when people stop following them. They have a lot to lose if they start losing students who might transfer out. Both numbers and money. BJ does not like anything going on that might make him and his edifice look bad. The Pharisees hated Jesus because Jesus embarassed them in front of the people. Pharaseical Christians ‘do not like’ being made to look or appear any less than perfect and holier than thou, in front of other people. And something like this peaceful protest was outside of BJ’s control. How do you know ‘anybody’ gave the protesters permission to have the protest? I think you’re assuming something here that is simply not reality. If Camille and fellow Alumni protesters, had ‘needed’ any permission to do this, they would not have done it at all. Correct me if I’m wrong here. After what the ex fundy Alumni went through exiting Fundamentalism and the BJU culture, they would ‘never’ give in to any ‘high and mighty approval’ of the pope of BJU. Never! Your sweeping generalizations are so much opinion with so little facts.

18. Constance, If these blogs are so insignificant, or as you say, have no validity to anyone of importance, why are you here? Why are you reading, commenting, and viciously attacking? Why? What do you hope to accomplish? The only bitterness I’ve heard is from you.

    1. Healthy, open honest communication in the freedom of dialogue sharing on blogs, can never be insignifigant. Obviously not all blogs are alike. But these blogs are giving people what they never really had in their former fundy lives, a safe place to talk freely and express whatever is on their hearts and minds at the time,without having to look over their shoulders to see if the ‘thought police’ or the ‘intimidation cops’ in their church or church college, is listening / spying on them! It never ceases to amaze me, how critical types like Constance, work so hard at trying to discouraging and shut down other people’s communication. Is it because they are afraid of talking about something? Is it because they are a little afraid of some truth? Maybe they have a bit of the ‘dog in the manger’ condition? If ‘I’ can’t enjoy this blog, then you don’t have a right to enjoy it either. It’s all so very childish. But also rather sad. Here we are, all adults freely sharing and talking together on a blog, and blogs and discussions are being called’ insignifigent . So ‘who’s’ actually ‘feeling’ insignifigent? Not us! Maybe the blog and blogger critics who are so unhappy.

19. Camille you are an amazing person doing great work. God’s work. You may be the best thing to come out of Bob Jones University since Billy Graham. Merry Christmas!

    1. Hey Rich, I think you’re right about that grateful observation. Considering how many supporters Camille ‘has’, and we don’t know them all because that’s confidential, and considering the positive, grateful involvement of volunteer blogger-sharers on Camille’s blog, I would say that, this blog and Camille as a moderator, with her kind of background,and the grateful responses of named and anonymous bloggers ,( some need to be anonymous to avoid backlash ) Camille’s blog has to be up there in the top ten. Not that like minded blog moderators are competitive or have any need to be, it would be fun to have a contest to vote for the favorites. I think I know what we would all do! We would say they were all our favorites, because the really encouraging-positive blogs, are really all ‘on the same page.’ Let’s hope ‘more’ Camille’s will come out of Bob Jones, when true grace sets them free. We need an army of free-spirited believers who will inspire real healing, and make freedom ‘so attractive’ that people ‘trapped in fundamentalism’ won’t be able to ‘resist’ God’s Grace call to freedom, and won’t be able to wait to get out. It can happen. May this happen to many more people.

20. @ Barbara:

    I think you are reading a lot of motive into my posts. I never said they shouldn’t protest, that I thought they were doing it for attention, or a host of other things you accused me of.

    I’ve read statements Dr. Lewis has written explaining that to critically analyze someone’s words is not anything personal. My analysis and conclusions were not an attack on anyone personally.

    My point was never whether the protest was right or wrong, or what their motives were.

    I was simply pointing out a flaw in logic that someone would think that they would be welcomed by the people they are protesting. That’s what didn’t make sense to me logically. It really had nothing to do with the subject of the protest or who is right/wrong.

    My statements about the DRBJU page came in because they stated it was not a protest. In that case, I could see why they might be disappointed that they were ignored.

    That was my main point – I’m sorry if you misunderstood.

21. ‘ALUMNI don’t exist for “companies.”’

    True. You said it was just BJU-land, so I provided another example. So yes, it’s different.

    “Dates. I want dates. Show me.”

    No. It involves other people and some are still there. But if you need an example of someone protesting inside while looking like the people around them, there are plenty of stories on the BJU survivors FB page.

    “It’s a university that desperately needs its alumni support”

    Yes, alumni support, not alumni protesting. You are not just an alumni member. You are a former employee who left under less than ideal circumstances, who received a form letter sent out to all alumni expressing a desire to have them visit campus (please correct me if it wasn’t a form letter).

    So I’m just critically analyzing this and trying to add up all the components in this list:

    1. Negative comments about the school in general and specific people started fairly immediately after you resigned.

    2. You have since put that information on your blog, with very little good to say about the school.

    3. It seems that your goal is to close the school due to a statement you signed.

    4. You have received personal threats.

    5. Not exact wording here, but you warned them that they didn’t want you on the outside, that it would be better for them to keep you, which could be perceived as a threat.

    6. They used derogatory words to describe you.

    7. You have signed petitions in protest.

    It still doesn’t make sense to me that after all this (and other things that I didn’t list), you would go on campus to protest and expect them to welcome you and chat with you.

    I’m actually very informed, but I think even an uniformed objective person would see that it doesn’t add up.

    1. Cycleman, “No, it involves other people, and some are still there…”

       Sounds like hearsay and second hand information, Cycleman. Camille has accurate archives, facts and dates. If ‘you’ have real facts and real dates, then , ‘show them.”

       “I’m actually very informed,…” but ‘What are your sources of information, Cycleman? Real facts, or simply the opinions of other people who you just happen to already agree with you ? “But I think even an uninformed person,…..” So being informed by real facts , the truth about a matter, this ‘doesn’t matter’?. “Objective person would see that it doesn’t add up.” ..” objective person????!!!!…” How could ‘an uninformed person’ possibly be objective about ‘anything’, when he is lacking in accurate information about a matter, to base his conclusions on? Only speculative, presumptuous bias could result from an uninformed person , assuming that ignorance and personal opinions could take the place of real facts and truth!!!!!!! ” and expect them to welcome you and chat with you.” Cycleman, the Alumni protesters ‘know’ the reality of how the BJU faculty are are all controlled by varying degrees of fear. The faculty don’t want to get a pink slip for appearing to ‘agree with’ the Alumni protesters , who are perceived by the BJU bosses to be outsiders and trouble makers committing the UNFORGIVABLE SINS of disagreeing with them, their BJU culture, their philosophy, and stranger than fiction ‘version of Christianity’. I still think you’re missing the point and the reality of what’s most important. People. People God loves and cares for.

22. @Barbara
    “Cycleman, how do you know that?”

    Because I watch the news, but also because I have protested against a school peacefully, with protest sign in hand. None in our group considered that the school representatives would speak to us. We were hoping for a reporter (and one did talk to us), but knew the people that we were protesting wouldn’t engage us.

    “A strike is a form of a protest, but management doesn’t engage strikers in conversation. The Union leaders do that at the bargaining table.”

    Exactly my point. The strikers don’t expect people to talk to them while they are protesting. Any negotiations are done elsewhere.

    “I’m not at all surprised that ‘not there all knew what was going on’. Not all there wanted to know.”

    It wasn’t because the school controlled the information. Quite the opposite. Any who weren’t aware of it were informed in chapel, and many students read the DRBJU page afterwards. The issue was that the admins of that page were saying it was a support only demonstration while other posters were calling it a protest. It was conflicting thoughts there that turned some students away because they weren’t sure which it was.

    “If Camille and fellow Alumni protesters, had ‘needed’ any permission to do this, they would not have done it at all.”

    I never said they needed permission. I said that if the school had wanted to, they could have had the protesters/supporters escorted from campus. This is true, though it would have caused a scene.

    I have been spiritually abused and it was horrible, but I have close friends who have had it much, much worse than I have. I understand the hurt, frustration, the damage to families, testimonies, and reputations. I understand being called a liar for daring to speak the truth as well as the injustice of receiving a threat because the authority is lying about you. I understand how it can totally change your personality. I’ve experienced how it can affect you for years. I really do get it.

    So I follow this blog, and even if I don’t always agree with the entries, I can usually follow the logic. This time I couldn’t – maybe that’s because of my experience. It’s definitely not just generalizations.

    I decided to comment on it and believe I did so without berating anyone and would like the same treatment in return.

23. Cycleman I do not believe that I was berating you by my response post to your posts. And I am truly sorry that you felt that way. It certainly was not my intention. I think we who have been abused rather badly, at any age, can very easily find ourselves ‘smarting somewhat’ over emotional issues of ‘being disagreed with’ by others, and that sometimes we falsely perceive that ‘as insult’, then take that as ‘personal rejection’, then take offense, and feel resentful about it. These are very normal feelings and emotions that we should not ignore, deny, invalidate , or stuff down as unimportant. We just all really need to bring everything out onto the light,believe the truth, that God loves us, ALL of us, and that our problems and emotional issues, never cause Him to reject or hate us. We all have a right to be treated with respect on blogs. And if you felt disrespected in any way by my posts, I ask my intention to offend you. al. I pray that you continue tofreely share your feelings , observations and opinions, knowing that you will be respected , having the same freedom to to do that, as the rest of us have. Remember that being disagreed with does not necessarily mean, people are rejecting you. Although, there are situations where that does seem to be the case. God Bless.

24. Who was the lady from Hew Hampshire that recanted her rape back in 1985 and had her rapist set free? I believe this situation took place in a BJ church.

    1. It was Cathy Crowell Webb, and her pastor was Carl Nannini who is more of the “Baptist Bride” variety of IFBs. She died recently, and at her death she was on staff of the BJU-affiliated school, Dunbar Christian Academy.

       Webb’s lawyer was John McLario, BJU grad, member of Vangeldren’s Menomonee Falls, and also a member of the BJU Executie Board of Trustees.

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